Posted March 26, 2021
Time4Tea
Free speech and honey!
Time4Tea Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2015
From United States
mrkgnao
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HCZVCTO
mrkgnao Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted March 26, 2021
high rated
I believe that for a lot of people the de facto definition of DRM can be expressed through a negative statement: "If it is sold on GOG, it is not DRM". So many people have stated, publicly or to themselves, that "as soon as DRM appears on GOG, I'm gone", yet they obviously cannot abide by it, since there is really no comparable alternative to GOG, and abandoning GOG is almost the same as abandoning DRM-free videogaming, so their solution is to follow GOG's lead and shift their line whenever GOG does so. Some even go as far as rewriting history to convince themselves that nothing has changed and they and GOG are still the same as they were back in 2008. All in order to avoid the terrifying prospect --- and it is truly terrifying, I'm not joking, I've been there myself --- of not being able to buy "one more game".
Post edited March 26, 2021 by mrkgnao
Time4Tea
Free speech and honey!
Time4Tea Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2015
From United States
Posted March 26, 2021
mrkgnao: I believe that for a lot of people the de facto definition of DRM can be expressed through a negative statement: "If it is sold on GOG, it is not DRM". So many people have stated, publicly or to themselves, that "as soon as DRM appears on GOG, I'm gone", yet they obviously cannot abide by it, since there is really no comparable alternative to GOG, and abandoning GOG is almost the same as abandoning DRM-free videogaming, so their solution is to follow GOG's lead and shift their line whenever GOG does so. Some even go as far as rewriting history to convince themselves that nothing has changed and they and GOG are still the same as they were back in 2008. All in order to avoid the terrifying prospect --- and it is truly terrifying, I'm not joking, I've been there myself --- of not being able to buy "one more game".
I suspect the same, which is why I know they will dodge. They want to leave their definition of DRM vague, for the same reasons that GOG do: so they can make it up as they go along and pull back the line whenever it suits them. Ultimately, these people are not primarily concerned about DRM, they are die-hard GOG fanboys who are willing to do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to defend their 'chosen store' against any detractors.Post edited March 26, 2021 by Time4Tea
Gudadantza
New User
Gudadantza Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2010
From Spain
Posted March 26, 2021
low rated
Time4Tea: 'DRM is DRM' is not a definition and I didn't suggest that it was in my post. In fact, I provided a very clear definition further down of what I consider to be DRM.
What is your definition of DRM then, Gudadantza? Please give me a clear definition.
DRM is the technical control of the digital property, it can be even a physical control device. What is your definition of DRM then, Gudadantza? Please give me a clear definition.
A control of a license, an always online check for a game. a CD check, a number of limited licenses control, or the control / limiting of the real game property itself. etc...etc... If a tool like a launcher enables some kind of those things it is probably DRM. If a tool does not enable any of those things it is not DRM.
Nobody could call the Itch.io launcher DRM, or it could? I believe some of you consider it in that way.
Gersen
New User
Gersen Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2008
From Switzerland
Posted March 26, 2021
low rated
Time4Tea: 'Optional' is a very vague term and could be applied to a wide variety of things. Most of the content (i.e. side quests) in a game like Oblivion is 'optional'. So, if we are exempting 'optional', it would be ok for optional side-missions to be locked, that are part of the 'base game'?
Yes it is, and if you look at Gog sentence that's also what they said, there is no absolute rule to determine what is "optional" or not, hence why their explanation was very vague and hence why we have some fringe cases like Goblin Inc. and Absolver. Time4Tea: This seems to be at the core of our disagreement: that we have different definitions of DRM. Let me ask you then: what is your definition of DRM? Where is your line drawn?
As I said multiple time : if I can copy (or install) a game to an offline computer and play the single player part of it without issue then it's DRM-free as far as I am concerned. And yes I don't care if it's installed via installers or downloaded using a client (that's why I consider "Enslaved - Odyssey to the West" on Steam as being DRM-free). And when I say "single player part" I also mean that I don't care about "optional" parts and by optional I mean skins, extra DLC'ish weapons or other stuff that I consider insignificant enough.
Of course the line is purely subjective but to give you example I don't care about the gold weapons in Dying Light at all as they are not needed for anything, but on the other side the online "Dynasty Weapons" of Heroes of Might and Magic 6 (if this game is ever released here) are something less acceptable as they are not just some novelty but directly impact gameplay making the game nearly impossible at higher difficulty level if you don't use them.
Post edited March 26, 2021 by Gersen
Zrevnur
CENSORED by the --g of RED devotion
Zrevnur Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Mar 2011
From Germany
Posted March 26, 2021
About the 'Absolver' thing:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
Absolver - Installs the invasive EAC anti-cheat software even for single player and won't start without it. Boss re-matches are locked behind an online requirement. Boss loot too. As well as some techniques that can be used in offline play but can only be learned online.
https://www.gog.com/game/absolver
Offline Single-Player Experience Available: Journey on an adventure that will take you from Prospect to Absolver in an exciting campaign, available both online and offline. The single-player mode pits you, and you alone, against lost Prospects and legendary warriors in the ruins of the Adal empire - complete with all content, free of interactions and encounters with other players.
DRM FREE. No activation or online connection required to play.
Putting these together Absolver doesnt even seem to meet GOGs own 'DRM free' level.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
Absolver - Installs the invasive EAC anti-cheat software even for single player and won't start without it. Boss re-matches are locked behind an online requirement. Boss loot too. As well as some techniques that can be used in offline play but can only be learned online.
Offline Single-Player Experience Available: Journey on an adventure that will take you from Prospect to Absolver in an exciting campaign, available both online and offline. The single-player mode pits you, and you alone, against lost Prospects and legendary warriors in the ruins of the Adal empire - complete with all content, free of interactions and encounters with other players.
DRM FREE. No activation or online connection required to play.
mrkgnao
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HCZVCTO
mrkgnao Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted March 26, 2021
Zrevnur: About the 'Absolver' thing:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
Absolver - Installs the invasive EAC anti-cheat software even for single player and won't start without it. Boss re-matches are locked behind an online requirement. Boss loot too. As well as some techniques that can be used in offline play but can only be learned online.
Zrevnur: https://www.gog.com/game/absolver
Offline Single-Player Experience Available: Journey on an adventure that will take you from Prospect to Absolver in an exciting campaign, available both online and offline. The single-player mode pits you, and you alone, against lost Prospects and legendary warriors in the ruins of the Adal empire - complete with all content, free of interactions and encounters with other players.
Zrevnur:
DRM FREE. No activation or online connection required to play.
Zrevnur: Putting these together Absolver doesnt even seem to meet GOGs own 'DRM free' level.
You may have missed GOG's new definition, spelled out by a GOG staff member yesterday, and quoted in the OP: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
Absolver - Installs the invasive EAC anti-cheat software even for single player and won't start without it. Boss re-matches are locked behind an online requirement. Boss loot too. As well as some techniques that can be used in offline play but can only be learned online.
Offline Single-Player Experience Available: Journey on an adventure that will take you from Prospect to Absolver in an exciting campaign, available both online and offline. The single-player mode pits you, and you alone, against lost Prospects and legendary warriors in the ruins of the Adal empire - complete with all content, free of interactions and encounters with other players.
DRM FREE. No activation or online connection required to play.
"as long as these additional features and rewards do not affect the single-player offline experience in a major way, we believe that the developers and publishers should be free to design and sell their games in a way they choose".
Mplath1
New User
Mplath1 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2018
From United States
Posted March 27, 2021
high rated
I know what DRM-free means to me but GOG really needs a clear definition in a F.A.Q. or something. By saying companies should be able to sell things as they wish (or whatever the phrasing) they're allowing each release to self-define what qualifies as DRM. That's actually perfectly okay with me but GOG shouldn't be suggesting in any way that they're a DRM-free store if they won't give consumers a blanket definition of what to expect.
I mostly play single player. For whatever reasons I tend to prefer it. So I rarely touch the multi-player component. I do care about the most complete version of a game so I usually want all DLC (though I care less about cosmetic DLC). I may not care about multi-player but the game isn't being sold to just me. Someone else might focus more of another aspect of the game I never touch. We should have a solid understanding of what we're purchasing no matter how we plan to use it. At the moment GOG seems to have decided that isn't something they need to have a hand in. Which again makes me question what differentiates GOG as a storefront. Why choose GOG over another store? The answer seemed clearer in the past then it does now.
Since I cared about the Devotion issue and censorship in general I can't help but mention how bizarre I find all this. GOG will listen to "many gamers" ( I don't buy that but let's assume it's true) about removing a game over content concerns, but not to many gamers who want clear guidelines on what constitutes DRM? When something upsets "many gamers" they take the reigns and decline to release a product, but when many gamers inquire about DRM it's each publisher's personal choice?
I understand CDRP is a business and not a charity. They are the ones who seem confused lately . I'm not looking for free, and I don't give away copies of anything I've ever purchased. Iwant to give you my dollars for Devotion but you pulled it. I want to buy DRM-free software but you can't guarantee what's in the box. As a business, don't you want to run things in a way to continue having my business?
I mostly play single player. For whatever reasons I tend to prefer it. So I rarely touch the multi-player component. I do care about the most complete version of a game so I usually want all DLC (though I care less about cosmetic DLC). I may not care about multi-player but the game isn't being sold to just me. Someone else might focus more of another aspect of the game I never touch. We should have a solid understanding of what we're purchasing no matter how we plan to use it. At the moment GOG seems to have decided that isn't something they need to have a hand in. Which again makes me question what differentiates GOG as a storefront. Why choose GOG over another store? The answer seemed clearer in the past then it does now.
Since I cared about the Devotion issue and censorship in general I can't help but mention how bizarre I find all this. GOG will listen to "many gamers" ( I don't buy that but let's assume it's true) about removing a game over content concerns, but not to many gamers who want clear guidelines on what constitutes DRM? When something upsets "many gamers" they take the reigns and decline to release a product, but when many gamers inquire about DRM it's each publisher's personal choice?
I understand CDRP is a business and not a charity. They are the ones who seem confused lately . I'm not looking for free, and I don't give away copies of anything I've ever purchased. Iwant to give you my dollars for Devotion but you pulled it. I want to buy DRM-free software but you can't guarantee what's in the box. As a business, don't you want to run things in a way to continue having my business?
Time4Tea
Free speech and honey!
Time4Tea Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2015
From United States
Posted March 27, 2021
Gudadantza: DRM is the technical control of the digital property, it can be even a physical control device.
A control of a license, an always online check for a game. a CD check, a number of limited licenses control, or the control / limiting of the real game property itself. etc...etc... If a tool like a launcher enables some kind of those things it is probably DRM. If a tool does not enable any of those things it is not DRM.
Nobody could call the Itch.io launcher DRM, or it could? I believe some of you consider it in that way.
A control of a license, an always online check for a game. a CD check, a number of limited licenses control, or the control / limiting of the real game property itself. etc...etc... If a tool like a launcher enables some kind of those things it is probably DRM. If a tool does not enable any of those things it is not DRM.
Nobody could call the Itch.io launcher DRM, or it could? I believe some of you consider it in that way.
Gersen: As I said multiple time : if I can copy (or install) a game to an offline computer and play the single player part of it without issue then it's DRM-free as far as I am concerned.
And yes I don't care if it's installed via installers or downloaded using a client (that's why I consider "Enslaved - Odyssey to the West" on Steam as being DRM-free). And when I say "single player part" I also mean that I don't care about "optional" parts and by optional I mean skins, extra DLC'ish weapons or other stuff that I consider insignificant enough.
Thanks. I appreciate both of you providing your definitions of what you consider DRM. That is helpful. So, it seems your definitions are different to mine, which is why we have a disagreement (because mine is stricter). Please note that your definitions of DRM are no more 'correct' than mine is (except to you). There is no globally agreed definition of what DRM is. And yes I don't care if it's installed via installers or downloaded using a client (that's why I consider "Enslaved - Odyssey to the West" on Steam as being DRM-free). And when I say "single player part" I also mean that I don't care about "optional" parts and by optional I mean skins, extra DLC'ish weapons or other stuff that I consider insignificant enough.
Therefore, I think all we can do is agree to disagree. GOG have crossed my line, but they haven't crossed yours (yet). Which is why I am boycotting and you are not. If they haven't crossed your line and you don't want to join the boycott, then fair enough. But please consider that not everyone is using the same definition of DRM that you are and for some, that line has already been crossed, where they have had enough.
Also, bear in mind that the boycott is not just about the perceived encroachment of DRM, it is also about censorship over Devotion, the continued pushing of Galaxy, the lack of maintenance of the offline installers and the shady deal with Epic. If you don't think any of those are issues worth protesting about, that's fair enough. But, some people do.
mrkgnao
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HCZVCTO
mrkgnao Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Time4Tea
Free speech and honey!
Time4Tea Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2015
From United States
Posted March 27, 2021
low rated
Mplath1: I know what DRM-free means to me but GOG really needs a clear definition in a F.A.Q. or something. By saying companies should be able to sell things as they wish (or whatever the phrasing) they're allowing each release to self-define what qualifies as DRM. That's actually perfectly okay with me but GOG shouldn't be suggesting in any way that they're a DRM-free store if they won't give consumers a blanket definition of what to expect.
I mostly play single player. For whatever reasons I tend to prefer it. So I rarely touch the multi-player component. I do care about the most complete version of a game so I usually want all DLC (though I care less about cosmetic DLC). I may not care about multi-player but the game isn't being sold to just me. Someone else might focus more of another aspect of the game I never touch. We should have a solid understanding of what we're purchasing no matter how we plan to use it. At the moment GOG seems to have decided that isn't something they need to have a hand in. Which again makes me question what differentiates GOG as a storefront. Why choose GOG over another store? The answer seemed clearer in the past then it does now.
I totally agree. If they are claiming to be a 'DRM-free' store, then they should provide a clear definition of what DRM-free means to them. And they should be willing to show some conviction based on that definition and enforce that standard on their store. It's the only way we can be confident there will be no more slippage. I mostly play single player. For whatever reasons I tend to prefer it. So I rarely touch the multi-player component. I do care about the most complete version of a game so I usually want all DLC (though I care less about cosmetic DLC). I may not care about multi-player but the game isn't being sold to just me. Someone else might focus more of another aspect of the game I never touch. We should have a solid understanding of what we're purchasing no matter how we plan to use it. At the moment GOG seems to have decided that isn't something they need to have a hand in. Which again makes me question what differentiates GOG as a storefront. Why choose GOG over another store? The answer seemed clearer in the past then it does now.
'Why choose GOG over another store?' It's a good question and I am also more confused about what really differentiates them from the competition these days. Those differentiating factors have been falling away over the years: no client, regional pricing, only complete games (no DLC) ...
Zrevnur
CENSORED by the --g of RED devotion
Zrevnur Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Mar 2011
From Germany
Posted March 27, 2021
Zrevnur: About the 'Absolver' thing:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
https://www.gog.com/game/absolver
Putting these together Absolver doesnt even seem to meet GOGs own 'DRM free' level.
mrkgnao: You may have missed GOG's new definition, spelled out by a GOG staff member yesterday, and quoted in the OP: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/drm_on_gog_list_of_singleplayer_games_with_drm/page1
https://www.gog.com/game/absolver
Putting these together Absolver doesnt even seem to meet GOGs own 'DRM free' level.
"as long as these additional features and rewards do not affect the single-player offline experience in a major way, we believe that the developers and publishers should be free to design and sell their games in a way they choose".
I am also unsure whether your quote is supposed to be an admission of accepting "low amounts" of DRM or something else (like you imply - a redefinition of 'DRM free').
Post edited March 27, 2021 by Zrevnur
mrkgnao
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HCZVCTO
mrkgnao Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted March 27, 2021
mrkgnao: You may have missed GOG's new definition, spelled out by a GOG staff member yesterday, and quoted in the OP:
"as long as these additional features and rewards do not affect the single-player offline experience in a major way, we believe that the developers and publishers should be free to design and sell their games in a way they choose".
Zrevnur: I was referring to the quoted addition/explanation of 'DRM free' from GOGs Absolver page. "as long as these additional features and rewards do not affect the single-player offline experience in a major way, we believe that the developers and publishers should be free to design and sell their games in a way they choose".
I am also unsure whether your quote is supposed to be an admission of accepting "low amounts" of DRM or something else (like you imply - a redefinition of 'DRM free').
Lodium
Dreamcatcher
Lodium Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Feb 2009
From Norway
Lodium
Dreamcatcher
Lodium Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Feb 2009
From Norway
Posted March 27, 2021
Addittional Post
The European Union's highest court, the Court of Justice, has ruled that software, whether sold via a license and whether physically or digitally-distributed, represents a good rather than a service, and that any purchaser of a perpetually-licensed software becomes the exclusive owner over that instance of the software, just as when they purchase any physical good. Most, if not all of the European Union's countries (including the UK) are also signatories to the Nice Agreement, making software in those countries goods. The EU Court of Justice has specifically ruled [archive link], "the copyright holder transfers the right of ownership of the copy of the computer program to his customer".
In a 2016 Australian case regarding Valve's refund policy for Steam, Australia's High Court carefully examined whether computer games sold through Steam are goods (and therefore property and consumer rights apply to them) or services (and therefore no property or consumer rights or apply to them), and concluded that they are fully goods, and that Valve doesn't merely sell a license to use the software, but in-fact sells the software itself, and that whoever buys a game from Steam becomes owner of the software that they purchased. Australia's High Court concluded: "Each of Valve’s challenges to the applicability of the Australian Consumer Law fails. The conflict of laws provisions in the Australian Consumer Law did not essentially carve out an exception for conduct by foreign corporations like Valve governed by a different contractual proper law. Valve supplied goods (which are defined as including computer software)."
In Canada, pre-2019, the government of Canada declared as goods in its Goods and Services Manual (2018 edition), "all computer programs and software regardless of recording media or means of dissemination, that is, software recorded on magnetic media or downloaded from a remote computer network". Since June 2019, Canada has been another signatory to the Nice Agreement, putting its classification of goods and services under the administration of the World Intellectual Property Organization. As a good, software is therefore a private property that is sold and purchased, and which is owned by its purchasers. In 2016, Canada's Federal Court ruled [2] that software licenses are property that transfers to the purchaser at the time of purchase.
The European Union's highest court, the Court of Justice, has ruled that software, whether sold via a license and whether physically or digitally-distributed, represents a good rather than a service, and that any purchaser of a perpetually-licensed software becomes the exclusive owner over that instance of the software, just as when they purchase any physical good. Most, if not all of the European Union's countries (including the UK) are also signatories to the Nice Agreement, making software in those countries goods. The EU Court of Justice has specifically ruled [archive link], "the copyright holder transfers the right of ownership of the copy of the computer program to his customer".
In a 2016 Australian case regarding Valve's refund policy for Steam, Australia's High Court carefully examined whether computer games sold through Steam are goods (and therefore property and consumer rights apply to them) or services (and therefore no property or consumer rights or apply to them), and concluded that they are fully goods, and that Valve doesn't merely sell a license to use the software, but in-fact sells the software itself, and that whoever buys a game from Steam becomes owner of the software that they purchased. Australia's High Court concluded: "Each of Valve’s challenges to the applicability of the Australian Consumer Law fails. The conflict of laws provisions in the Australian Consumer Law did not essentially carve out an exception for conduct by foreign corporations like Valve governed by a different contractual proper law. Valve supplied goods (which are defined as including computer software)."
In Canada, pre-2019, the government of Canada declared as goods in its Goods and Services Manual (2018 edition), "all computer programs and software regardless of recording media or means of dissemination, that is, software recorded on magnetic media or downloaded from a remote computer network". Since June 2019, Canada has been another signatory to the Nice Agreement, putting its classification of goods and services under the administration of the World Intellectual Property Organization. As a good, software is therefore a private property that is sold and purchased, and which is owned by its purchasers. In 2016, Canada's Federal Court ruled [2] that software licenses are property that transfers to the purchaser at the time of purchase.