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General discussionBest RPG MECHANICS (!), not game ? (On GOG)(26 posts)(26 posts)
(26 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 22, 2017
Dear Goggers,
merry christmas. I wish you people the best for the next year and hope you are fine, alive and at least somewhat well.

During the last weeks/months i looked up some RPGs on GOG. And most of the time, there was a lot of issues with something at "RPG Mechanics".
Different games, similar problems.
Like people would brag about how bad the leveling is, how character creation would be pointless/stupid, sometimes its that some classes are not quite good, Skill system and so on. The games that had caught my attention were:
- Inquisition
- The Temple of Elemental Evil
- Book of Eschalon 2/3
- The recent Might&Magic and Wizardry games
- Konung & Lords of Xulima

You see: I get sometimes the points and WHY those game could be not so fun.

Currently i am playing (depends on how i feel like): Legends of Grimrock, Shadowrun: HongKong, Eschalon Book 1 and (not on GOG) The Dark Eye: Drakensang (by RadonLabs). Sometimes i still play Neverwinter Nights.
The last (RPG) games i beat through: Shadowrun Returns, Shadowrun: Dragonfall. (I just love ´em. Story/Atmosphere/GameFeel).
My taste in games is simple, in all those 26+ Years i play (i am 28, but i played at the Atari2600 of my father and the NES of his friend), i enjoyed a lot of award winning games, gems and even those games that were recieved badly by fanbase (lets say Doom3 or Quake4, if you know what i mean). Sometimes i hated games that were supposed to be good, sometimes i found joy in the most stupid thing.
In all those years i never cared for "minor details" if i had a challenge, some good music, atmosphere- and overall fun.
There were exceptions in RPG, where i actually missed the RPG: Of course i know when the skill tree is actually a skill line, or the quest-marker makes sure you dont miss the exact location of a whole city, and so on...

QUESTION

Now i wonder: What is the game - invariant to popularity, ratings and personal opinion - that have the best mechanics/gameplay ratio. What game includes a great skill-system, fair combat (doesnt matter what type), superb RPGing and is a blizz on mechanical levels?

Just try to give me the "After that, you will never be the same" or "If you see this, you will understand" tipp!

Edit:
I want to add, that i want to exclude the Fallout Series and well known Bioware classics (Icewind Dale, Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment). I hope thats fine for the discussion.
Post edited December 22, 2017 by Samet42
Posted December 22, 2017
It is a much harder question than I thought at first. A game where all the rpg mechanics click....hmm. I am afraid I personally have not played such a game :-(

Lots of role-playing games with unbalanced skills or neigh useless skills :-( or where you simply cannot win unless you have a certain level in some skill (Sorry, no entering the castle without 8 thieving. You only have 5 and cannot level up anymore).

The first Mount and Blade has very nice character creation, choice of skills, levelling system but pretty awful quests. The game is not very good unless you choose the intended path so no real choice of a career. Still, the game's good mechanics stood out.

I will think of this one more but there must be different sets that work well as a whole, so not a single perfect recipe.

ADD.: Did you mean a specific mechanic, like the perks in the Fallout games?
Post edited December 22, 2017 by Themken
Posted December 22, 2017
Not sure what you mean by 'blizz on mechanical levels' but disregarding that, from all the rpgs I've played I'd definitely say Fallout and especially its sequel Fallout 2
https://www.gog.com/game/fallout
https://www.gog.com/game/fallout_2

Happy to hear that you enjoyed Doom 3 and Quake IV by the way. There are dozens of us!
Post edited December 22, 2017 by Matewis
Posted December 22, 2017
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Matewis: Not sure what you mean by 'blizz on mechanical levels' but disregarding that, from all the rpgs I've played I'd definitely say Fallout and especially its sequel Fallout 2
https://www.gog.com/game/fallout
https://www.gog.com/game/fallout_2

Happy to hear that you enjoyed Doom 3 and Quake IV by the way. There are dozens of us!
Thank you.
Fallout and Fallout 2 are strong, no question. I should have mentioned them as well. (I will add them)
I love the character creation and the "old school feel" of those. And also: They are simply classics.
BUT:
Fallout (regardless how good they are) had always some simple flaw, because of its "nature": You have a lot of freedom, yes. But if you simply build your strongman with heavy guns, you are good. And if you already know the game, the quests and what to do, you could simply fill up your "charme" and solve some fights with words.
Reminder: This is NO BRAG or HATE to the games. I loved them, up to New Vegas (!) and specially Fallout 2 (where Fallout 1 has this time pressure for me). Heck, i even love Fallout Tactics (never forget that one).

Fallout and Bioware games are on the same level for me. Quite high, but not that what i am looking for with that post. (if it exists in the first place)

Thank you :)
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Themken: It is a much harder question than I thought at first. A game where all the rpg mechanics click....hmm. I am afraid I personally have not played such a game :-(

Lots of role-playing games with unbalanced skills or neigh useless skills :-( or where you simply cannot win unless you have a certain level in some skill (Sorry, no entering the castle without 8 thieving. You only have 5 and cannot level up anymore).

The first Mount and Blade has very nice character creation, choice of skills, levelling system but pretty awful quests. The game is not very good unless you choose the intended path so no real choice of a career. Still, the game's good mechanics stood out.

I will think of this one more but there must be different sets that work well as a whole, so not a single perfect recipe.

ADD.: Did you mean a specific mechanic, like the perks in the Fallout games?
It´s tricky, right? :)
The Fallout perks are great (!) and highly enjoyable. So yes: Something like that would be great, where it gives me a slightly or whole different game or at least a new experience here and there.

But i mean the whole mechanics, where everything clicks.
The plot can be thin.
The graphics horrible. (Hell, it could be an excel-game haha)
The controls overloaded.

But i wonder if there is a game, where every spent skill-point matters and every class feels completely different.
You know? Not that "I rush with a Warrior through first and look for the rest later" experience. A game where you actually get (logical) penalties for choosing a warrior.

A game that can be completely stupid - but people would agree about the RPG mechanics ticking behind it and that they actually work.
Post edited December 22, 2017 by Samet42
Posted December 22, 2017
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Samet42: Now i wonder: What is the game - invariant to popularity, ratings and personal opinion - that have the best mechanics/gameplay ratio.
That is impossible. Mechanics, just like gameplay, are a matter of taste. I, for example, like the 'Oddity' leveling system of Underrail. Others don't like it at all and prefer to use the classic XP leveling. Same with Morrowind et al. I like the leveling through skill use, because it makes sense flavour-wise, but of course it can be heavily abused and some people don't like it. I, however, don't like hitpoint-mechanics in RPGs. I would prefer a more realistic model of injuries, not just some abstract number.

The list is long. So you will never get a mechanics rating that is independent of personal opinion, since there is no objectively 'best' mechanics.

But on a personal scale, the RPG with the best mechanics is NetHack. I just love the complexity and the huge amount of possibilities the game gives you.
Post edited December 22, 2017 by Lifthrasil
Posted December 22, 2017
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Lifthrasil: That is impossible. Mechanics, just like gameplay, are a matter of taste. I, for example, like the 'Oddity' leveling system of Underrail. Others don't like it at all and prefer to use the classic XP leveling. Same with Morrowind et al. I like the leveling through skill use, because it makes sense flavour-wise, but of course it can be heavily abused and some people don't like it. I, however, don't like hitpoint-mechanics in RPGs. I would prefer a more realistic model of injuries, not just some abstract number.

The list is long. So you will never get a mechanics rating that is independent of personal opinion, since there is no objectively 'best' mechanics.

But on a personal scale, the RPG with the best mechanics is NetHack. I just love the complexity and the huge amount of possibilities the game gives you.
Your "personal scale", that helps actually :) !
So Underrail is already on my wishlist, and the oddity leveling system sounds quite neat. (Like on an overall level, the game is interesting)

I heard of NetHack so many times. Some people call it even the best game of all time. I think i will give it a look now and check the mechanics there.
Thank you!

There is however a fine line between personal taste and general acceptance. I CAN give the example of "Mario Bros." which is my favorite example: No matter if you are into jump&runs or are more the Sonic guy - the mechanics behind the game in relation to its genre is actually perfect. The first level is probably the best "tutorial" ever, without labeling itself as such - and you use the same mechanics and your growing experience to beat the later levels.
This is universal good game design. Objectively.

I am not saying that you are not right, because i get your point. But i am searching for that "Mario Bros. idea" of RPG. Not something you can abuse, or where it doesnt matter how you skill your Char or what class you choose.
Posted December 22, 2017
Classic Fallout and Fallout 2, for all I hate the first one are probably some of the most mechanically sound games with incredible options to be the person you really want to be. Wasteland and Wasteland 2 have some of this, but are more combat oriented.

Underrail is like Fallout and should have consideration as well. It is an excellently put together game with obvious inspiration from Fallout.

The Witcher 3 is a very good ARPG, much better put together than the second game, and more mechanically sound than the first game which plays more like a traditional real time rpg.

And if I'm going to mention ARPGs, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. *mic drop*
EDIT: The mechanics in that game for leveling and skill use are very very good. It is one of the best reasons to play the game.
Post edited December 22, 2017 by paladin181
Posted December 22, 2017
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Samet42: I am not saying that you are not right, because i get your point. But i am searching for that "Mario Bros. idea" of RPG. Not something you can abuse, or where it doesnt matter how you skill your Char or what class you choose.
In that case you really should check out NetHack. Be prepared that it is frustrating. It's a hard game and it's a true rogue-like. In that it is like the game Rogue, only even more complex. (So not the PR-speak, meaningless 'rogue-like' of today). It takes quite some time to learn all the mechanics and how to use them to your advantage.

Also, it has basically no graphics unless you install a tileset. But there are beautiful tilesets and it definitely has a very well balanced and extensive set of mechanics.

But Paladin also has a point: the first two Fallout games are also very good on the mechanics side. All your stats actually mean something and there is a good feeling of progression as you develop your character.
Posted December 22, 2017
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paladin181: Classic Fallout and Fallout 2, for all I hate the first one are probably some of the most mechanically sound games with incredible options to be the person you really want to be. Wasteland and Wasteland 2 have some of this, but are more combat oriented.

Underrail is like Fallout and should have consideration as well. It is an excellently put together game with obvious inspiration from Fallout.

The Witcher 3 is a very good ARPG, much better put together than the second game, and more mechanically sound than the first game which plays more like a traditional real time rpg.

And if I'm going to mention ARPGs, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. *mic drop*
EDIT: The mechanics in that game for leveling and skill use are very very good. It is one of the best reasons to play the game.
VampiresThe Masquerade: Bloodlines - i did some research about it few weeks ago. I am highly interested in this game - is it really that good? (Well i trust you on that) And the rest of the game: Does it play well with the mechanics?


SoFar:
NetHack
Vampires BLoodlines
Posted December 22, 2017
I don't know about specifically the GOG forum community or the larger set of GOG customers, but on the wide internets, the consensus seems to be that Divinity: Original Sin 2 (available on GOG) is omgwtfbbq amazing.
Posted December 22, 2017
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Samet42: VampiresThe Masquerade: Bloodlines - i did some research about it few weeks ago. I am highly interested in this game - is it really that good? (Well i trust you on that) And the rest of the game: Does it play well with the mechanics?


SoFar:
NetHack
Vampires BLoodlines
Vampire has a decent story, but the gameplay is great. Depending on your clan choice you can manipulate people around you, avoid them entirely, or my personal favorite, go with Gangrel and maul everyone like the savage beast you are. The stats and choices reflect this in the game. I personally love the game and think that it plays better than most. In fact the game is almost disappointing at times with all the potential it has in the gameplay department compared to what you get. But what you get isn't bad at all.
Posted December 22, 2017
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Samet42: But i wonder if there is a game, where every spent skill-point matters and every class feels completely different.
You know? Not that "I rush with a Warrior through first and look for the rest later" experience. A game where you actually get (logical) penalties for choosing a warrior.
Arcanum was like that for me. Best character creation system I've ever played. I spent so much time creating new characters and playing through the first hour or two of the game just to experience all the differences. Abilities - both combat and non-combat were widely different between builds. Also, dialogue in the game changed impressively between characters.

The three most common complaints against the game are:
-Bugs. But there are patches now that really take care of this issue.
-The real-time combat sucks ass. True. But I never used it. I liked the turn-based combat just fine.
-The mines dungeon section was toooooooooo long! And I've always disagreed. I enjoyed it every time.

To my point, though, only one of those complaints touches on the gameplay. And I maintain that the turn-based combat is just fine.
Posted December 22, 2017
I happen to like Elminage Gothic. Take the classic Wizardry formula, fine-tune it, and (after playing the game for a bit) crank the difficulty up to 11. There aren't many choices in character building; you choose a class and an EX-skill for each character, and class changing is possible like in classic Wizardry, but that's it; however, remember that you have a party of 6, and you can create new characters at any point in the game.

Another nice thing about Elminage Gothic is how the developers went out of their way to make certain abilities useful. Often, you will encounter an enemy that, while dangerous, has an obvious weakness. Status ailments and instant death spells are actually quite useful (there are so many games where they are useless or not worth using over other options), and many of the EX skills make certain fights much easier. Also, each class has its own special abilities, some of which are learned at high levels like the Samurai's ability to dodge an attack and counter-attack.

As for difficulty, the final bonus dungeon has enemies that can wipe out a party whose levels are in the hundreds, which is actually a level you can expect to be at just by exploring and killing the enemies you come across.

Unfortunately, the game is lacking when it comes to music; most of the "music" really just feels like ambent noise without any real melodies.
Posted December 22, 2017
My lists (some have more than one - bc lots of times the best have good variances or close competitors) :

Best tb combat: temple of elemental evil
Best pause-and-play: Baldurs gate, Icewind Dale, dragon age
Best skill system: neverwinter nights, skyrim
Best 1st person combat: thief the Dark project
Best 3rd person action: darkstone
Best magic: elder scrolls 3-5
Posted December 22, 2017
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Samet42: .
.
.
Have you tried a modded to the teeth Oblivion / Fallout 3? What are your thoughts on Saints Row?
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Community
General discussionBest RPG MECHANICS (!), not game ? (On GOG)(26 posts)(26 posts)
(26 posts)