Posted December 23, 2020
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teceem
Ack Ack Ack!
Registered: Apr 2013
From Belgium
![toxicTom](https://images.gog.com/0db75938256077a53af07d0c40d8b680e1d499367dcc52877ce22fcbd3986beb_forum_avatar.jpg)
toxicTom
Big Daddy
Registered: Feb 2009
From Germany
![toxicTom](https://images.gog.com/0db75938256077a53af07d0c40d8b680e1d499367dcc52877ce22fcbd3986beb_forum_avatar.jpg)
toxicTom
Big Daddy
Registered: Feb 2009
From Germany
Posted December 23, 2020
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/77665aa6affc77960e6b537ee348222af4d3fecc684f14d10088eae491b41e33_avm.jpg)
Max x86 Realmode access: FFFF+FFFF0 = 10FFEF (1087k (~1Mb))
Max with byte shift: FFFF + FFFF00 = 100FEFF (16,447k (~16Mb))
Instead of the 640k max potential memory, assuming you took say 2 megs for video/anything else, that would give you 14Mb max accessible before going 32bit. Though you'd still be working with 64k segments, it would have been quite different.
(286 could access something like 16Megs theoretically but Win 3.x use pretty much died at that point)
Last time I went that deep was on the C64 more than 30 years ago. (Damn, I'm that old?). Just to learn what makes computers tick, found the source code of a little games even (in Assembly) and tinkered with them. Page-long listings of byte-code in computer magazines, which needed to be typed exactly like they were into the computer. I think my parents thought I was totally bonkers...
Next step at serious programming was C++, which is way more abstracted (although still low-level enough to seriously mess up your machine :-))
BTT, but that is what PC gaming is about... not just "consuming", put in the game, shut off the brain... PC's and their predecessors (Home Computers) are machines that fuel creativity and inventiveness. And that's why there's mods, cracks, hacks, total conversions and a huge indie sector with tons of brilliant ideas turned into trash, but sometimes not, games.
Post edited December 23, 2020 by toxicTom
![§pec†re](https://images.gog.com/def22c1a9dd79edfab989d3e29d3e9af4ec6ccec3a60babfd324136492caf4da_forum_avatar.jpg)
§pec†re
Reeeeeeeeeee!!!
Registered: Sep 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted December 23, 2020
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/27a38075b39196b7c723f8e05f687f831432657aed353eb2a8014101f03b855f_avm.jpg)
We have Cyberpunk2077 on the PS4 and Xboxone at the end of their life but imagine the same situation in the past.
That would have been like Unreal Tournament 2003(which came out in 2002) being made to run on the first Playstation.
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/3d2f077afb3dc8a74b7a423a0d78f63db94741429d35dc394bd5878789365426_avm.jpg)
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/39618d7e5f1547dc391987b3ad5c61b29aa315fac4d603e33c9ec4f5206285c5_avm.jpg)
*assuming it's a switch,PS5 or PS Vita control style and they use the full features of the controllers.
![Orkhepaj](https://images.gog.com/bd79d78d187c04f083c4225044ba6bc35fbc89855391bb21f7bd4e295e9fa04b_forum_avatar.jpg)
Orkhepaj
SuperStraight Win10 Groomer Smasher
Registered: Apr 2012
From Hungary
Posted December 23, 2020
low rated
hmm so there is another doom older than 2016?:O why they have the same name then? who thought this is fine...
well some other rather untalented ones name the new xbox , xbox series x , so confusing
well some other rather untalented ones name the new xbox , xbox series x , so confusing
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Dark_art_
🔴I'm just glad that cows don't fly YO
Registered: Dec 2017
From Portugal
![rtcvb32](https://images.gog.com/77665aa6affc77960e6b537ee348222af4d3fecc684f14d10088eae491b41e33_forum_avatar.jpg)
rtcvb32
echo e.lolfiu_fefiipieue|tr valueof_pi [0-9]
Registered: Aug 2013
From United States
Posted December 24, 2020
I'm not referring to extenders, i'm talking about Segment registers in the x86 systems.
You had multiple, CS (Code) DS (Data) SS (Stack) ES (Extra) and FS/GS (added later). By default depending on which register you used, it would automatically use said segment address. Curiously not all registers could be used for addressing early on. And the math of the segment registers was literally multiply by 16 (shift 4) and add, and that's the real flat memory address.
Then in the case you wanted to use a different segment register you'd specify it during the call, which usually was a single byte prefix code. So instead of say mov word ptr [BX], 100h (probably DS), you'd put mov word ptr ES:[BX], 100h. (Since registers are 16bit, 64k is still the max to any segment/reference). Also regardless the instruction there was no Mem/Mem combo. (So no chance of getting them confused)
Memory extention was probably closer to the XMS memory manager which basically said you wanted to load segment from extended memory into more local memory, and save too. This is basically how the early Doom and other high memory games worked. If the hardware didn't originally support it, the extender would have direct memory access and you call it's API's probably through an inturrupt or other.
Curiously Atari with the 1300XE and the like, had a built in mechenism to access >64k (though they only went 128k i think, and it only changed a 32 or 16k with another slot). Not aware of many games/programs that took advantage of that.
You had multiple, CS (Code) DS (Data) SS (Stack) ES (Extra) and FS/GS (added later). By default depending on which register you used, it would automatically use said segment address. Curiously not all registers could be used for addressing early on. And the math of the segment registers was literally multiply by 16 (shift 4) and add, and that's the real flat memory address.
Then in the case you wanted to use a different segment register you'd specify it during the call, which usually was a single byte prefix code. So instead of say mov word ptr [BX], 100h (probably DS), you'd put mov word ptr ES:[BX], 100h. (Since registers are 16bit, 64k is still the max to any segment/reference). Also regardless the instruction there was no Mem/Mem combo. (So no chance of getting them confused)
Memory extention was probably closer to the XMS memory manager which basically said you wanted to load segment from extended memory into more local memory, and save too. This is basically how the early Doom and other high memory games worked. If the hardware didn't originally support it, the extender would have direct memory access and you call it's API's probably through an inturrupt or other.
Curiously Atari with the 1300XE and the like, had a built in mechenism to access >64k (though they only went 128k i think, and it only changed a 32 or 16k with another slot). Not aware of many games/programs that took advantage of that.
Post edited December 24, 2020 by rtcvb32
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joelandsonja
Monster Hunter
Registered: Nov 2011
From Canada
Posted December 24, 2020
I think the video with Henry Cavill building a PC, combined with my constant pressure to ditch consoles has finally caused my brother to join the PC Master Race. He just finished building his new gaming rig this past month. He's in his mid forties, and has always been a console gamer, so I consider this to be a tremendous victory. =)
![toxicTom](https://images.gog.com/0db75938256077a53af07d0c40d8b680e1d499367dcc52877ce22fcbd3986beb_forum_avatar.jpg)
toxicTom
Big Daddy
Registered: Feb 2009
From Germany
Posted December 24, 2020
Thanks for the lesson. Feels weird to find this incredibly intriguing and the same time knowing it's basically useless knowledge nowadays.
But I never can resist to accumulate useless knowledge, esp. when it comes to computers, Or history.
To hack some ASM on modern PCs, what would you recommend? (if I ever find the time).
But I never can resist to accumulate useless knowledge, esp. when it comes to computers, Or history.
To hack some ASM on modern PCs, what would you recommend? (if I ever find the time).
![rtcvb32](https://images.gog.com/77665aa6affc77960e6b537ee348222af4d3fecc684f14d10088eae491b41e33_forum_avatar.jpg)
rtcvb32
echo e.lolfiu_fefiipieue|tr valueof_pi [0-9]
Registered: Aug 2013
From United States
Posted December 24, 2020
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0db75938256077a53af07d0c40d8b680e1d499367dcc52877ce22fcbd3986beb_avm.jpg)
But I never can resist to accumulate useless knowledge, esp. when it comes to computers, Or history.
To hack some ASM on modern PCs, what would you recommend? (if I ever find the time).
To do asm? Depends. A number of languages include inlining assembly, D for example you just do a asm{} block, c does something similar (and GCC you specify the code, but also what registers it mangles so it can do cleanup).
Straight assembly you just need an assembler and a little knowledge on the instruction set, so those cases as (assembler in unix/linux, AT&T syntax) or nasm.
Though raw assembly is rarely needed unless there's features the compiler doesn't expose that you need.
But looking at the sheer raw size of some of the instruction sets... unless I'm writing an assembler, there's WAY too much there now vs when i was looking at it for 16bit and 386.
![sharp299](https://images.gog.com/6573ba4cc1abbef5b60e2dac5d6b0454e880c8d86f6298ffbb66db31e4459614_forum_avatar.jpg)
sharp299
COD=CloneOfDoom
Registered: Aug 2012
From Mexico
Posted December 24, 2020
I want to believe that it is the first case beacuse I don't wannna feel cheated by the time I spent writing the previous post...
anyway going back to the topic of the post, i think being a pc gamer is a way of life. I am one of the people who enjoys the installation of a retail product, look at the old trailers it included and legitimately discover "new" games, for example The longest journey I discovered it from a trailer included in Caesar III.
another aspect is the life time, many games thanks to the Compatibility Tools (wine, wrappers, etc.) emulators (Dosbox) or source ports can be played on modern windows or linux. So no matter how old these games are, they will always be compatible with current OS
anyway going back to the topic of the post, i think being a pc gamer is a way of life. I am one of the people who enjoys the installation of a retail product, look at the old trailers it included and legitimately discover "new" games, for example The longest journey I discovered it from a trailer included in Caesar III.
another aspect is the life time, many games thanks to the Compatibility Tools (wine, wrappers, etc.) emulators (Dosbox) or source ports can be played on modern windows or linux. So no matter how old these games are, they will always be compatible with current OS
Post edited December 24, 2020 by sharp299
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Tigersong
New User
Registered: Jan 2012
From United States
Posted December 24, 2020
As for me, I see games getting worse and worse. More focused on blood and death, with naked women thrown in for good measure. So I play older games, mostly.
I know: the violent ones get more coverage. Sad, but that's the way it is.
I'm thankful for the invention of USB controllers, so I can play console-style on my PC.
I sound so old, possibly because growing up, the most violent title I played was Return of the King- which I still admire for its skill-based combat. If only it were patched for modern systems. Mine was a sheltered life...
I know: the violent ones get more coverage. Sad, but that's the way it is.
I'm thankful for the invention of USB controllers, so I can play console-style on my PC.
I sound so old, possibly because growing up, the most violent title I played was Return of the King- which I still admire for its skill-based combat. If only it were patched for modern systems. Mine was a sheltered life...
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timppu
Favorite race: Formula__One
Registered: Jun 2011
From Finland
![Panaias](https://images.gog.com/3d2f077afb3dc8a74b7a423a0d78f63db94741429d35dc394bd5878789365426_forum_avatar.jpg)
Panaias
Ancient Mariner
Registered: Sep 2012
From Greece
Posted December 24, 2020
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/27a38075b39196b7c723f8e05f687f831432657aed353eb2a8014101f03b855f_avm.jpg)
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/27a38075b39196b7c723f8e05f687f831432657aed353eb2a8014101f03b855f_avm.jpg)
So how does that work with e.g. Minecraft and other games then, when you have only one analog stick for both looking around and moving around? Using only the digital crosspad for movement? I guess I am about to find out.
But I think a Switch owner should clarify these details.
![rtcvb32](https://images.gog.com/77665aa6affc77960e6b537ee348222af4d3fecc684f14d10088eae491b41e33_forum_avatar.jpg)
rtcvb32
echo e.lolfiu_fefiipieue|tr valueof_pi [0-9]
Registered: Aug 2013
From United States