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LootHunter: Wow! Tell me then, how does reality operate?
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richlind33: Only a fool presumes to know.
But you said yourself
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richlind33: Reality doesn't operate in accordance with taxonomy
Which mean that you either a fool who presumes to know how reality does and doesn't operate, or your claim is not valid.
This thread.
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richlind33: Only a fool presumes to know.
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LootHunter: But you said yourself
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richlind33: Reality doesn't operate in accordance with taxonomy
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LootHunter: Which mean that you either a fool who presumes to know how reality does and doesn't operate, or your claim is not valid.
Do you really think it's possible that human agency dictates reality? Seriously? o.O
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Socratatus: .
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BlueMooner: I have trouble believing your claim that you're black. I say this because the argument you're making is the same one I see time and again in other places online, that whites in the West are somehow being persecuted and oppressed horribly. The fact that you think you'll be banned for saying so tells me you're used to this response, telling me this isn't the first time you've posted about the poor white man. Which is why I think you're actually a white man, claiming to be a black man to make your "whites are suffering" argument more palatable. I don't buy it, but ultimately, it doesn't matter.

What bothers me most is the illogic of your whole thread here. If you ACTUALLY cared about racism in games, then you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining of a SINGLE game with no whites. Really, the first game in existence with no whites is RACIST against whites??? I don't think you know what racism is. There are a million games out there where you can only play as white men. So those are racist, right? Why aren't you complaining of those million games, instead on the one game without whites? If you'll make one thread over one game without whites, where are your million threads on the million games with only whites? And what about all the other races rarely if ever represented in games, as if blacks and whites are all that existed?? This is why I don't believe you're being honest. And as someone else pointed out, apparently white women don't count as whites. Way to show you're thinking of others. /s

A further point in passing is your argument about slavery. You take issue with people claiming whites in the West started slavery, telling everyone it's not fair to single whites out for that, but then feel no hypocrisy in claiming white christian men ended slavery. Guess what, white xian men DID start slavery in the West, did own other human beings for centuries, did justify it with the bible, and yes, did finally end it. But ending an evil that you started is hardly a great thing, is it? If I dump toxic waste on your home and property and leave it there for centuries before cleaning it up, am I a great person?

The reason some people complain about negative or absent portrayals of certain demographics in games and other media, is as part of a much larger issue of discrimination and invisibility that that demo is dealing with. It's not an issue in and of itself, but one piece of numerous pieces in the whole. It's media representation AND laws AND education AND prisons AND culture AND violence AND labor AND housing AND so on.... Are whites in the West being targetted for murder in large numbers? Raped? Imprisoned? Discriminated against let alone persecuted or even oppressed? No... not the slightest bit.

Did this game even present whites in a horrible way, using negative and offensive stereotypes? No? Did it add to the public's view that whites are worthless scum that should be exiled or imprisoned or killed? No?? Then no, there's zero racism here.

Now please, spend your time fighting for ACTUAL causes, because there isn't anti-white racism in games. Well, except Othello.
THIS, I was about to say OP is obviously a white racist pretending to be black to get away with his own borderline racism but BlueMooner phrases it far better than I could.
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Socratatus: It`s not often that I am accused of not being black. I was not even going to respond to such a retarded insult.

But I guess it suits some of you who cannot comprehend that a black man can think outside of his own world, that a black man can think from other points of view, not his own. You think black men are simple savages. So I can`t possibly be black.

I am now seeing a new, very dark side of these `progressive liberals` of today. You are the true racists. You see blacks as inferior, incapable of defending themselves or others.

Shame on those of you who think you can dare talk this way about a black man who expresses a concern. Racism, true racism, is alive and well today from you types. For shame.

p.s. And I am truly African-type black, not even mixed race, even though in your foolishness you won`t believe it.
LMAO as if any black guy would ever say 'African Type Black, not even mixed race' FFS bwahaha
Post edited May 01, 2018 by supplementscene
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richlind33: Do you really think it's possible that human agency dictates reality? Seriously? o.O
i never said that, in fact I think taxonomy is defined by reality, not the other way around.
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LootHunter: And? In english grammar you call a man he and a woman she. Or not?
See? I said that a man is called he and woman - she, not a person who is called he is a man and a person who is called she is a woman (like dtgreene was suggesting).

But since taxonomy is a part of reality and you called fool any person who knows about how reality operates, I desided not to make any claims (so you would just call me fool), but point out that you are a fool by your own reasoning.
Post edited May 01, 2018 by LootHunter
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devoras: What we label something is less important than what something actually is, labels are arbitrary and intended to facilitate communication. THAT is my only problem with the game.
(1) Yes, words are arbitrary labels, and their meaning is a social convention.

(2) So is the constant and inescapable change of words and their meaning.

(3) Driven, in this case, by scientific progress and human empathy.

(4) Experimenting with that change for the reasons in (3) is inherent to and expected of the science fiction genre.

But, no, that is not your actual problem with the game. You've actually been more clear and succinct before:

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devoras: I can't immerse myself in a game where my gender isn't specific
Your problem isn't the usual problem of unschooled "language guardians", i.e. people that are scared out of their wits that the meaning of words changes constantly (see e.g. Jean Aitchison, Joan Bybee). Your problem is that you have trouble relating to a fictional character just because strictly speaking the game doesn't tell you whether he or she has a penis or a vagina.

Your problem possibly is related to the attempt to make every main character in your games an avatar, a mere projection figure for your own personality and your "own actions". That is a legit preference of course, but a huge restriction on games as a whole, which enable us like no other narrative medium to walk in the shoes of someone not ourselves.

That legit preference, however, is subjective in the highest degree and can not be molded into an objective point of criticism.

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devoras: biological gender is a fundamental part of anyone's identity
As others have remarked, there is no "biological gender", only sex. Gender is a social construct, and as such naturally questioned today. That scares you, I get it. But I have to I assure you, those that fall beyond the socially constructed dichotomy are fully formed personalities with fully formed identities, they are not "delusional", they are not "making things up", they don't claim to be "attack helicopters", they are completely real, they're not fake people, and not half real people. They don't deserve your pity. They deserve to be treated as fellow human beings.

If the loosest of possible ideas, the mere faint hint that a video game character may have a non-binary gender, makes you not want to play a game, I suggest not playing the game. Going on a video game forum to make an actual point of contention out of the very silly notion, that I would not suggest.
Post edited May 01, 2018 by Vainamoinen
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supplementscene: LMAO as if any black guy would ever say 'African Type Black, not even mixed race' FFS bwahaha
Because all non-white people use the same left-wing approved and politically correct terms like "black" for person of purely african descent and "person of color" for person of mixed heritage?
Post edited May 01, 2018 by LootHunter
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Vainamoinen: Your problem is that you have trouble relating to a fictional character just because strictly speaking the game doesn't tell you whether he or she has a penis or a vagina.
In a fashion, yes, though this statement could be misconstrued. Biologically speaking, as with all mammals(and most, though not all, animals), there are two genders, male and female; those are required for continuation of the species. A human's biological gender has huge implications for them, their appearance, how they think, their actions, everything. Think of any movie, tv show, hell even your home and workplace; one of the most fundamental characteristics of a human is their biological gender. There are a small number of people that are hermaphrodite, but most are male or female.

If someone doesn't feel like the gender that they are, that doesn't change their physical characteristics. I am saying we should not ignore the physical reality of someone's gender. That doesn't mean we're trying to be offensive towards them. Acknowledge the physical reality first, then treat them with respect by calling them what they want to be called. If we start calling a man a woman, we can no longer identify men and women by using those words. We will have to invent other words for no good reason, maybe a 'Grog' could be a man who is male, and 'Fillie' could be a woman who is female, while the broader definition of 'woman' then becomes either a female, or a male who wants to be identified as a female; but I don't see the need to even go down that route. Acknowledge physical reality, because that's how men and women are defined, then treat someone with respect if they don't fall within the standard definition after.
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devoras: biological gender [...] biological gender [...] physical reality of someone's gender
Stop that nonsense please. It interferes with your basic ability to reason.
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devoras: biological gender [...] biological gender [...] physical reality of someone's gender
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Vainamoinen: Stop that nonsense please. It interferes with your basic ability to reason.
I am attempting to be clear that I'm discussing the physical characteristics that make up a person's gender. Otherwise someone might try to claim something silly like gender being a social construct instead of biological reality.
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richlind33: Do you really think it's possible that human agency dictates reality? Seriously? o.O
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LootHunter: i never said that, in fact I think taxonomy is defined by reality, not the other way around.
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LootHunter: And? In english grammar you call a man he and a woman she. Or not?
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LootHunter: See? I said that a man is called he and woman - she, not a person who is called he is a man and a person who is called she is a woman (like dtgreene was suggesting).

But since taxonomy is a part of reality and you called fool any person who knows about how reality operates, I desided not to make any claims (so you would just call me fool), but point out that you are a fool by your own reasoning.
That claim is based on my understanding of the limitations of the human mind -- something with which you seem to be intimately acquainted. ;p
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LootHunter: i never said that, in fact I think taxonomy is defined by reality, not the other way around.

See? I said that a man is called he and woman - she, not a person who is called he is a man and a person who is called she is a woman (like dtgreene was suggesting).

But since taxonomy is a part of reality and you called fool any person who knows about how reality operates, I desided not to make any claims (so you would just call me fool), but point out that you are a fool by your own reasoning.
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richlind33: That claim is based on my understanding of the limitations of the human mind -- something with which you seem to be intimately acquainted. ;p
Of course. As a person who uses own mind (to learn natural laws and patterns that reality operates amongst other things) I'm quite familiar with my mind's limitations. %D
Since this garbage fire thread is still going on, I'd like to throw in a couple more loads, as it pertains to leftist representation.

First, a small correction:
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dtgreene: (I have even read of a case where an XY person got pregnant and carried a child to term!)
Impossible. Like, it's possible you've read about it, but it was fake. If it were true, it'd basically turn all of biology on its head. Non-XX people can get pregnant and produce viable offspring, but it requires a very specific complicated combination of chromosomes (not XXY, like 6 characters long and utterly batshit) that isn't going to occur in nature by chance until the heat death of the universe.

Now this is an example of something colloqualliy known as the horseshoe theory:
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dtgreene: Furthermore, I could point out that studies have shown that the brains of transgender people match more closely with their identified gender than their birth assigned sex.
...this is good old biological essentialism, except the criterion is different.

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devoras: Your mention of sociological is flawed, however, at least with those examples given. There are clear differences between men and women that can be seen very, very early on in life. Girls are more interested in people, while boys are more interested in things. That's where the dolls vs action figures comes in, and men are more aggressive and competitive, while women are more agreeable and supportive. Those aren't traits that are imposed on them by society.
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devoras: That's not how it works. You can't change reality just by saying something is true. I can understand the idea that a woman might want to be a man, or that a man might wants to be a woman, and I have empathy for their position. But I disagree with the idea that a woman saying they want to be a man, magically makes them into a man. They're still a woman, whom we can have empathy for and can refer to as a man. But that still doesn't make them male.
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dtgreene: It is not unusual (though not universal) for transgender people, even early in life, to show the behaviors of the gender they identify with, rather than the gender they were assigned at birth.
(I took the liberty of correcting a typo instead of making an obvious joke. How magnanimous of me.)

Again, gool old biological essentialism. And whose of us who know history know what biological essentialism leads to: women's options shrink while men can do whatever the fuck they want to do. It's hilarious to see two males with ostensibly different politics arguing about the correct way to tell women to gtfo to the kitchen and make sammiches.

What actually happens in the scenarion dtgreene described ranges from duh to tragic.

Example of duh:
a boy sees an awesome woman and for whatever reason decides he's going to be like her when he grows up. He gets told "nope, you're a boy" and starts adopting stereotypically girly behavior. (Keep in mind that a young Western child typically doesn't have opposite-sex peers -- his reference for how boys and girls behave is the terrible sexist media. Playmates are same-sex, and siblings have too much of an age difference.)

Example of tragic:
a girl does something interesting and gets told "nope, you can't do this, it's for boys, your lot in life is to sit pretty, be a victim, and pop babbies". She then decides fuck this shit, I'm going to be a boy then.

Neither is proof of biological essentialism. No one gets born with a love of cars or dresses. As I've said in one of the other threads on the subject, there are cultures where men wear dresses and women wear pants and that's what boys and girls gravitate to, respectively. IT was a woman's job when it paid fuck all. Cooking and child-rearing are stereotypical women's jobs, and yet most celebrity chefs and celebrity pediatricians are men. Fashion is horrifyingly sexist.

Many children get over it (the rather unfortunate medical term for it is "desist"), but some don't. Again, two very common scenarios for it:
- shitty conservative parents continue to harass the child, "no, you're a boy, dresses are for c**ts and f****ts"
- shitty liberal parents start championing the kid's brand new gender and the kid is afraid to disappoint the parents.

Re: OP:
BatteTech is indeed massively racist, but not in the way the OP describes. The actual problem is it presents a universe in which reverse racism is a fact of life: there's oppressive classist hereditary nobility and shit asking to be guillotined, and the main players are brown people and women. This is exactly the shit conservative propagandists spread: that egalitarian anti-racist, anti-sexist efforts are a ploy to institute oppressive dictatorships.
Post edited May 01, 2018 by Starmaker
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Starmaker: First, a small correction:
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dtgreene: (I have even read of a case where an XY person got pregnant and carried a child to term!)
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Starmaker: Impossible. Like, it's possible you've read about it, but it was fake. If it were true, it'd basically turn all of biology on its head. Non-XX people can get pregnant and produce viable offspring, but it requires a very specific complicated combination of chromosomes (not XXY, like 6 characters long and utterly batshit) that isn't going to occur in nature by chance until the heat death of the universe.
Except that, according to the scientific literature, this actually has happened:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

There's also this, which can happen:
https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/16/1/56/3113894
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richlind33: Is that necessary?
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GreasyDogMeat: Yes.

If you disagree you are a retarded fucking moron. You make the extreme religious right look sane.

No... Seriously. Fuck you.
https://media.giphy.com/media/n8SkNR77udWlG/giphy.gif