Posted January 04, 2018
what's the matter mr Roboto? don't like their hommage to you?
Post edited January 04, 2018 by Dejavous
Dejavous
New User
Registered: Oct 2017
From United States
Getcomposted
Meeping away
Registered: Aug 2009
From United Kingdom
Posted January 04, 2018
Okay, RPG's seem to encompass a lot of types of games right now. Here are a few, not all, of them.
There's the ARPG (Action RPG) where you run around hacking 'n' slashing. With every kill you gain EXP to level up. A good example of this, imo, is Divine Divinity. You get an open world to quest in and the fights are more or less real time. A lot of mouse clicking is needed especially if you venture into an area past your level.
Then there's the dungeon crawler - Legend of Grimrock, Eye of the Beholder for first person views, or the Avernum or Avadon series for a top down or isometric view. These tend to be turn-based with lots of wandering around mapping places. A quarter exploration, a quarter survivalism, a quarter puzzling (because obviously, you need to find the stone idol's ruby eyes to open the door), and a quarter fighting.
The SRPG (Strategy RPG), you command a team of heroes/grunts/ fighters that must defeat a group of enemies. You have to take into account variables like terrain, type of fighter, speed of movement, weaknesses and strengths against various types of enemies. Rock, meet scissors, not paper. These types of games are less open world and more series of battles culminating in a grand style, last gasp hurrah, this is for all the marbles, boss battle. Disgaea, Fire Emblem.
The JRPG (Japanese RPG) with the Final Fantasy series being a rather famous example. Spiky haired pretty boys taking on the ecological monster with improbably gigantic swords. Open worlds, random encounters, some kind of disasters destroying the world in some non-green fashion. An aspect of Japanese life is Shinto, a belief system that everything has an essence from rocks to trees to animals to people. If things are out of balance, bad things happen. Cue spiky haired hero with possible orphan or abandonment issues to come and find his destiny and save the day. Also big eyes.
And then there's the CRPG (Computer RPG) typified in the games of yesteryore like Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate. Here I think the genres are a little mixed as they tend to be the progenitor of all the tropes. Squad based, solo characters, they all jump in there. Usually turn-based, the plot lines are more westernized, think Lord of the Rings Big Bads rather than Sephiroth with mother issues. It's not a journey to discover yourself and your destiny, more a discover and investigate danger. Although Planescape: Torment is a discover your identity and purpose, just... not... Japanese. It feels to me like the character takes his amnesia in his stride. Yes, he'd love to find out who he is, but it's not going to stop him kicking ass and chewing bubblegum.
Anyway, my rather sleep deprived ramble on RPG's. There are so many types with so many elements that originate from RPG's spliced in the DNA of all genres of games now, I can't say that RPG's are at all niche. Maybe the very strictest of codifying what a RPG is would make them niche - toss out ARPG's as not being turn-based etc., but essentially, a Role Playing Game is exactly that, a game in which you play a role, and isn't that a description you could apply to most games?
[Edit: typos.]
There's the ARPG (Action RPG) where you run around hacking 'n' slashing. With every kill you gain EXP to level up. A good example of this, imo, is Divine Divinity. You get an open world to quest in and the fights are more or less real time. A lot of mouse clicking is needed especially if you venture into an area past your level.
Then there's the dungeon crawler - Legend of Grimrock, Eye of the Beholder for first person views, or the Avernum or Avadon series for a top down or isometric view. These tend to be turn-based with lots of wandering around mapping places. A quarter exploration, a quarter survivalism, a quarter puzzling (because obviously, you need to find the stone idol's ruby eyes to open the door), and a quarter fighting.
The SRPG (Strategy RPG), you command a team of heroes/grunts/ fighters that must defeat a group of enemies. You have to take into account variables like terrain, type of fighter, speed of movement, weaknesses and strengths against various types of enemies. Rock, meet scissors, not paper. These types of games are less open world and more series of battles culminating in a grand style, last gasp hurrah, this is for all the marbles, boss battle. Disgaea, Fire Emblem.
The JRPG (Japanese RPG) with the Final Fantasy series being a rather famous example. Spiky haired pretty boys taking on the ecological monster with improbably gigantic swords. Open worlds, random encounters, some kind of disasters destroying the world in some non-green fashion. An aspect of Japanese life is Shinto, a belief system that everything has an essence from rocks to trees to animals to people. If things are out of balance, bad things happen. Cue spiky haired hero with possible orphan or abandonment issues to come and find his destiny and save the day. Also big eyes.
And then there's the CRPG (Computer RPG) typified in the games of yesteryore like Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate. Here I think the genres are a little mixed as they tend to be the progenitor of all the tropes. Squad based, solo characters, they all jump in there. Usually turn-based, the plot lines are more westernized, think Lord of the Rings Big Bads rather than Sephiroth with mother issues. It's not a journey to discover yourself and your destiny, more a discover and investigate danger. Although Planescape: Torment is a discover your identity and purpose, just... not... Japanese. It feels to me like the character takes his amnesia in his stride. Yes, he'd love to find out who he is, but it's not going to stop him kicking ass and chewing bubblegum.
Anyway, my rather sleep deprived ramble on RPG's. There are so many types with so many elements that originate from RPG's spliced in the DNA of all genres of games now, I can't say that RPG's are at all niche. Maybe the very strictest of codifying what a RPG is would make them niche - toss out ARPG's as not being turn-based etc., but essentially, a Role Playing Game is exactly that, a game in which you play a role, and isn't that a description you could apply to most games?
[Edit: typos.]
Post edited January 04, 2018 by Getcomposted
Hrymr
Divine Challenge
Registered: Jun 2014
From Poland
Posted January 04, 2018
Depends on the definition. According to some people games like Witcher or Skyrim aren't RPGs, but action games with some watered down RPG elements.
And if you accept the strict definition, then those RPGs aren't niche, they are dead. We murdered them and they had to die, because nobody likes mapping dungeons by himself, being beheaded by ninjas in the no-magic zone, or getting whole party teleported into solid rock.
And if you accept the strict definition, then those RPGs aren't niche, they are dead. We murdered them and they had to die, because nobody likes mapping dungeons by himself, being beheaded by ninjas in the no-magic zone, or getting whole party teleported into solid rock.
Breja
You're in my spot
Registered: Apr 2012
From Poland
Posted January 04, 2018
It's a modren masretpiece :D
Post edited January 04, 2018 by Breja
LootHunter
Political non-Euclidean
Registered: Dec 2013
From Russian Federation
Posted January 07, 2018
Also action-based combat doesn't make System Shock less niche, nor open world makes Dwarf Fortress more mainstream (yes, I know those games are not RPG's but only have RPG elements, but still you get the point).
vaperknightcrew
New User
Registered: Jan 2018
From Philippines
Posted January 07, 2018
There's the ARPG (Action RPG) where you run around hacking 'n' slashing. With every kill you gain EXP to level up. A good example of this, imo, is Divine Divinity. You get an open world to quest in and the fights are more or less real time. A lot of mouse clicking is needed especially if you venture into an area past your level.
Then there's the dungeon crawler - Legend of Grimrock, Eye of the Beholder for first person views, or the Avernum or Avadon series for a top down or isometric view. These tend to be turn-based with lots of wandering around mapping places. A quarter exploration, a quarter survivalism, a quarter puzzling (because obviously, you need to find the stone idol's ruby eyes to open the door), and a quarter fighting.
The SRPG (Strategy RPG), you command a team of heroes/grunts/ fighters that must defeat a group of enemies. You have to take into account variables like terrain, type of fighter, speed of movement, weaknesses and strengths against various types of enemies. Rock, meet scissors, not paper. These types of games are less open world and more series of battles culminating in a grand style, last gasp hurrah, this is for all the marbles, boss battle. Disgaea, Fire Emblem.
The JRPG (Japanese RPG) with the Final Fantasy series being a rather famous example. Spiky haired pretty boys taking on the ecological monster with improbably gigantic swords. Open worlds, random encounters, some kind of disasters destroying the world in some non-green fashion. An aspect of Japanese life is Shinto, a belief system that everything has an essence from rocks to trees to animals to people. If things are out of balance, bad things happen. Cue spiky haired hero with possible orphan or abandonment issues to come and find his destiny and save the day. Also big eyes.
And then there's the CRPG (Computer RPG) typified in the games of yesteryore like Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate. Here I think the genres are a little mixed as they tend to be the progenitor of all the tropes. Squad based, solo characters, they all jump in there. Usually turn-based, the plot lines are more westernized, think Lord of the Rings Big Bads rather than Sephiroth with mother issues. It's not a journey to discover yourself and your destiny, more a discover and investigate danger. Although Planescape: Torment is a discover your identity and purpose, just... not... Japanese. It feels to me like the character takes his amnesia in his stride. Yes, he'd love to find out who he is, but it's not going to stop him kicking ass and chewing bubblegum.
Anyway, my rather sleep deprived ramble on RPG's. There are so many types with so many elements that originate from RPG's spliced in the DNA of all genres of games now, I can't say that RPG's are at all niche. Maybe the very strictest of codifying what a RPG is would make them niche - toss out ARPG's as not being turn-based etc., but essentially, a Role Playing Game is exactly that, a game in which you play a role, and isn't that a description you could apply to most games?
[Edit: typos.]
teceem
Ack Ack Ack!
Registered: Apr 2013
From Belgium
Posted January 07, 2018
For me, THE example of an ARPG or "hack 'n' slash RPG" is Diablo.
Engerek01
Disteryan
Registered: Oct 2013
From Turkey
Posted January 07, 2018
What does niche mean?
I tried to look the word up in my dictionaries but failed to find a relevant translation to the meaning mentioned in this topic. I am asking this question also because, while reading the replies on this Topic, I felt that there is not a consortium regarding the meaning of the word.
I tried to look the word up in my dictionaries but failed to find a relevant translation to the meaning mentioned in this topic. I am asking this question also because, while reading the replies on this Topic, I felt that there is not a consortium regarding the meaning of the word.
StingingVelvet
Devil's Advocate
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted January 07, 2018
Opposite of mainstream, basically. A smaller but passionate audience.
As for the question, I think what we used to know as RPGs are a niche thing for sure, but now almost every game has some kind of stat-driven element to it. Genres have folded so in on themselves you can't really say X or Y are niche or mainstream. Fallout 4 is definitely not niche. Some might argue it's not a "true RPG" either, but then you get into the semantics of evolution.
As for the question, I think what we used to know as RPGs are a niche thing for sure, but now almost every game has some kind of stat-driven element to it. Genres have folded so in on themselves you can't really say X or Y are niche or mainstream. Fallout 4 is definitely not niche. Some might argue it's not a "true RPG" either, but then you get into the semantics of evolution.
Getcomposted
Meeping away
Registered: Aug 2009
From United Kingdom
Posted January 07, 2018
For me, THE example of an ARPG or "hack 'n' slash RPG" is Diablo.
So Baldur's Gate's fights from what I can remember are turn-based. The opponent(s) and your character(s) take turn to flail at each other. Once you put your character in fight mode, it will continue to fight independent of your mouse clicks, until you tell it to stop.
Yes, Divine Divinity and Baldur's Gate have similar UI and backgrounds. However if you compare the way the combat feels to games like Diablo or Fate, frenetic and involved as opposed to Baldur's Gate's slightly more cerebral and tabletop D&D combat, then Divine Divinity has more akin to Diablo and Fate. Hence, ARPG, in my opinion.
[Edit: My life is spent correcting typos.]
Post edited January 07, 2018 by Getcomposted
teceem
Ack Ack Ack!
Registered: Apr 2013
From Belgium
Posted January 07, 2018
For me, THE example of an ARPG or "hack 'n' slash RPG" is Diablo.
So Baldur's Gate's fights from what I can remember are turn-based. The opponent(s) and your character(s) take turn to flail at each other. Once you put your character in fight mode, it will continue to fight independent of your mouse clicks, until you tell it to stop.
Yes, Divine Divinity and Baldur's Gate have similar UI and backgrounds. However if you compare the way the combat feels to games like Diablo or Fate, frenetic and involved as opposed to Baldur's Gate's slightly more cerebral and tabletop D&D combat, then Divine Divinity has more akin to Diablo and Fate. Hence, ARPG, in my opinion.
[Edit: My life is spent correcting typos.]
StingingVelvet
Devil's Advocate
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted January 07, 2018
Yeah back in the day RPGs were all about stats controlling the outcome, not player skill. Action RPGs were action games with role-playing elements. Now though so many games are action with roleplaying elements it's almost not a genre but a definition of action games in general.
Mafwek
Killing for entertainment is harmlees
Registered: Jun 2013
From Croatia
Posted January 07, 2018
So Baldur's Gate's fights from what I can remember are turn-based. The opponent(s) and your character(s) take turn to flail at each other. Once you put your character in fight mode, it will continue to fight independent of your mouse clicks, until you tell it to stop.
Yes, Divine Divinity and Baldur's Gate have similar UI and backgrounds. However if you compare the way the combat feels to games like Diablo or Fate, frenetic and involved as opposed to Baldur's Gate's slightly more cerebral and tabletop D&D combat, then Divine Divinity has more akin to Diablo and Fate. Hence, ARPG, in my opinion.
[Edit: My life is spent correcting typos.]
dtgreene
vaccines work she/her
Registered: Jan 2010
From United States
Posted January 07, 2018
There's the ARPG (Action RPG) where you run around hacking 'n' slashing. With every kill you gain EXP to level up. A good example of this, imo, is Divine Divinity. You get an open world to quest in and the fights are more or less real time. A lot of mouse clicking is needed especially if you venture into an area past your level.
Then there's the dungeon crawler - Legend of Grimrock, Eye of the Beholder for first person views, or the Avernum or Avadon series for a top down or isometric view. These tend to be turn-based with lots of wandering around mapping places. A quarter exploration, a quarter survivalism, a quarter puzzling (because obviously, you need to find the stone idol's ruby eyes to open the door), and a quarter fighting.
The SRPG (Strategy RPG), you command a team of heroes/grunts/ fighters that must defeat a group of enemies. You have to take into account variables like terrain, type of fighter, speed of movement, weaknesses and strengths against various types of enemies. Rock, meet scissors, not paper. These types of games are less open world and more series of battles culminating in a grand style, last gasp hurrah, this is for all the marbles, boss battle. Disgaea, Fire Emblem.
The JRPG (Japanese RPG) with the Final Fantasy series being a rather famous example. Spiky haired pretty boys taking on the ecological monster with improbably gigantic swords. Open worlds, random encounters, some kind of disasters destroying the world in some non-green fashion. An aspect of Japanese life is Shinto, a belief system that everything has an essence from rocks to trees to animals to people. If things are out of balance, bad things happen. Cue spiky haired hero with possible orphan or abandonment issues to come and find his destiny and save the day. Also big eyes.
And then there's the CRPG (Computer RPG) typified in the games of yesteryore like Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate. Here I think the genres are a little mixed as they tend to be the progenitor of all the tropes. Squad based, solo characters, they all jump in there. Usually turn-based, the plot lines are more westernized, think Lord of the Rings Big Bads rather than Sephiroth with mother issues. It's not a journey to discover yourself and your destiny, more a discover and investigate danger. Although Planescape: Torment is a discover your identity and purpose, just... not... Japanese. It feels to me like the character takes his amnesia in his stride. Yes, he'd love to find out who he is, but it's not going to stop him kicking ass and chewing bubblegum.
Anyway, my rather sleep deprived ramble on RPG's. There are so many types with so many elements that originate from RPG's spliced in the DNA of all genres of games now, I can't say that RPG's are at all niche. Maybe the very strictest of codifying what a RPG is would make them niche - toss out ARPG's as not being turn-based etc., but essentially, a Role Playing Game is exactly that, a game in which you play a role, and isn't that a description you could apply to most games?
[Edit: typos.]
First, the ARPG category. I actually don't consider them RPGs in the first place (they're action games that happen to borrow heavily from the RPG genre, but are still action games at their core), but regardless, there are many games that fit that character that don't require much mouse clicking. In fact, many such games that fit your definition are on platforms that don't even support a mouse in the first place (like the NES)!
Second, I wouldn't lump the games you call dungeon crawlers all in the same category. In particular, Avernum and Avadon do not seem like dungeon crawlers to me, and it seems that Wizardry-likes (like Etrian Odyssey and Elminage Gothic) ought to fit in this category.
Finally, CRPG is not a distinct category here; reading your description, it sounds like you are describing WRPGs (Western RPGs) with your description. CRPG, to me, refers to any RPG that is played on a computer (or computing device), and in particular, does include JRPGs as well as WRPGs. (This is a mistake that a lot of people seem to be making in this thread.)
One other thing: "With every kill you gain EXP to level up" is not a criterion that makes a game an RPG, nor is is a universal criterion that every RPG satisfies. The SaGa series (which is interesting in many respects, like the way it blurs the line between WRPG and SRPG) is a good example here; excluding the original SaGa 3, there are no experience points or levels, but instead you have different rules for character growth. Another good example is the Elder Scrolls series (excluding Arena); there are levels and something that counts as experience points, but killing enemies isn't how you earn them.
Another problem with that definition: depending on how one defines "fight", your definition risks accidentally including Cookie Clicker and similar games, which I don't think was the intent.
Post edited January 07, 2018 by dtgreene
devoras
New User
Registered: Jun 2012
From Canada
Posted January 08, 2018
For me, the most important part of an rpg is the ability to really customize your character in a meaningful way as you proceed through the story. Like your choice of abilities as you level up can change your experience of the game, it makes me feel like the character is mine, and makes me much more invested in them. Equally important is having an interesting enough story to keep me invested. Definite extra points if there are meaningful dialogue choices and different ways to go about things.
There are some genres that I can't even stand(primarily fps) unless they have rpg elements added to them. If you look at the differences between some games, the ones with rpg elements are almost always better. Quest for glory series is much better than the king's quest series, system shock and deus ex are better than doom or wolfenstein, disgaea or final fantasy tactics are better than strategy wargames, even alpha protocol is better than any fps shooter(I don't think many people playing the game understood how important the rpg mechanics were in that game, and were upset because they weren't super good with guns right away, but it has one of the most nuanced plots I've experienced. You can learn some amazing things on subsequent playthroughs that you had no idea were happening in the background on the first) The ones without rpg mechanics are too shallow to hold my interest for long, ex. shooting things gets old quickly when I have no sense of progression from when I start to when I end, it feels hollow, mindless, and pointless.
Action rpgs are tricky. Some of them are really good, like (most of) the Tales series, but a LOT of action rpgs are barely rpgs, as there aren't many meaningful choices to be made in character progression. The witcher 3 was barely an rpg when it came to the mostly dull combat and character advancement, but more than made up for it in other ways that increased immersion greatly, and I thought it was a great game. When I see a new rpg game and get excited, that excitement goes away quickly if I see it's an 'action' rpg, as most of them are too shallow to be interesting. I much prefer turn based rpgs, or at least real time with pause(if I must).
The best rpgs are ones like Planescape torment, baldur's gate 2, knights of the old republic, fallout 1 and 2, divinity original sin 2, dragon age 1, final fantasy series(up to 10), etc. Back in the day games like ultima and the gold box dnd games were good, but they haven't aged as well as many others. There seem to be a lot less 'pure', ie. good, rpg games in recent years. Final fantasy hasn't made an rpg game since final fantasy 10, they're all mmo or action garbage now; but the earlier games were amazing. It's not easy to find good rpg games, so many of them are watered down with other genres, to their detriment. On the upside, many other genres blend in rpg mechanics more than they used to, and that only improves them.
There are some genres that I can't even stand(primarily fps) unless they have rpg elements added to them. If you look at the differences between some games, the ones with rpg elements are almost always better. Quest for glory series is much better than the king's quest series, system shock and deus ex are better than doom or wolfenstein, disgaea or final fantasy tactics are better than strategy wargames, even alpha protocol is better than any fps shooter(I don't think many people playing the game understood how important the rpg mechanics were in that game, and were upset because they weren't super good with guns right away, but it has one of the most nuanced plots I've experienced. You can learn some amazing things on subsequent playthroughs that you had no idea were happening in the background on the first) The ones without rpg mechanics are too shallow to hold my interest for long, ex. shooting things gets old quickly when I have no sense of progression from when I start to when I end, it feels hollow, mindless, and pointless.
Action rpgs are tricky. Some of them are really good, like (most of) the Tales series, but a LOT of action rpgs are barely rpgs, as there aren't many meaningful choices to be made in character progression. The witcher 3 was barely an rpg when it came to the mostly dull combat and character advancement, but more than made up for it in other ways that increased immersion greatly, and I thought it was a great game. When I see a new rpg game and get excited, that excitement goes away quickly if I see it's an 'action' rpg, as most of them are too shallow to be interesting. I much prefer turn based rpgs, or at least real time with pause(if I must).
The best rpgs are ones like Planescape torment, baldur's gate 2, knights of the old republic, fallout 1 and 2, divinity original sin 2, dragon age 1, final fantasy series(up to 10), etc. Back in the day games like ultima and the gold box dnd games were good, but they haven't aged as well as many others. There seem to be a lot less 'pure', ie. good, rpg games in recent years. Final fantasy hasn't made an rpg game since final fantasy 10, they're all mmo or action garbage now; but the earlier games were amazing. It's not easy to find good rpg games, so many of them are watered down with other genres, to their detriment. On the upside, many other genres blend in rpg mechanics more than they used to, and that only improves them.
Post edited January 08, 2018 by devoras