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kohlrak: The problem is, it requires the hardware companies to play nice. VESA attempted this a long time ago, and even made a standard called VESA BIOS Extensions (VBE), but compliance was never enforced. As far as i can tell, what does and does not get attention and support depends entirely on the daily buzz words. In other words, there aren't enough people complaining about all that lost potential to get anything going. To implement it without the universal driver requirement, i would point to SDL, which is a software attempt at getting support. Oh, look at the topic titlle. SDL is totally relevant for 2d games, which there seems to be a big market for right now, and it's great for teaching new programmers (instead of teaching them via "forms" and "console windows" or the library of the day that won't exist when they finally code on their own).
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richlind33: Another question, slighty related: why hasn't MS enforced a proper standard for software installers? Why leave it in the hands of end users who don't know how to distinguish good from bad?
They did, a long, long time ago. Bad people used it, too. With the amount of saturation in the windows software market, microsoft can't house an online store. They can't even run DNS servers properly. They've tried restricting devs by requiring software signing, but not only does that get in the way, but the bad guys use that, too. Basically, that's what you get for being the shark in a pond.
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Beast360: how is this gonna affect gog in general? will all the games just drop the macos installers? will cdpr finally give us Linux galaxy, since Linux will always be able to play the games that were ported to Linux, will the macos galaxy eventually whither and die?
GOG already have two categories of issues with macOS:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_gog_games_incompatible_with_mac_os_x_1013_high_sierra
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_gog_games_incompatible_with_64bitonly_macos

OpenGL-based native 64-bit games will still run on macOS 10.14, but could have problems in macOS after 10.14.
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richlind33: Another question, slighty related: why hasn't MS enforced a proper standard for software installers? Why leave it in the hands of end users who don't know how to distinguish good from bad?
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kohlrak: They did, a long, long time ago. Bad people used it, too. With the amount of saturation in the windows software market, microsoft can't house an online store. They can't even run DNS servers properly. They've tried restricting devs by requiring software signing, but not only does that get in the way, but the bad guys use that, too. Basically, that's what you get for being the shark in a pond.
I've never run into an instance where windows prevented me from authorizing a "bad" installer. Have you?

For clarification, I'm talking about installations that make it impossible to properly uninstall the program.
Post edited June 07, 2018 by richlind33
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kohlrak: They did, a long, long time ago. Bad people used it, too. With the amount of saturation in the windows software market, microsoft can't house an online store. They can't even run DNS servers properly. They've tried restricting devs by requiring software signing, but not only does that get in the way, but the bad guys use that, too. Basically, that's what you get for being the shark in a pond.
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richlind33: I've never run into an instance where windows prevented me from authorizing a "bad" installer. Have you?
No, but my windows is out of date. Meanwhile, i've had legit programs blocked from running even in user mode (the programs were valid). Would you like a sample?
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richlind33: I've never run into an instance where windows prevented me from authorizing a "bad" installer. Have you?
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kohlrak: No, but my windows is out of date. Meanwhile, i've had legit programs blocked from running even in user mode (the programs were valid). Would you like a sample?
Your word is good enough. Did you see my edit?
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kohlrak: No, but my windows is out of date. Meanwhile, i've had legit programs blocked from running even in user mode (the programs were valid). Would you like a sample?
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richlind33: Your word is good enough. Did you see my edit?
Now i did. The answer's still the same, except people don't care about proper uninstallation. Why use MSI when you can do it with EXE? Moreover, can you rely on it to get all files left over by a program if they don't report those files to the installer? Nope. In linux it is treated as a bug when that happens. In Android, it requires reinstalling your system when that happens.
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richlind33: Your word is good enough. Did you see my edit?
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kohlrak: Now i did. The answer's still the same, except people don't care about proper uninstallation. Why use MSI when you can do it with EXE? Moreover, can you rely on it to get all files left over by a program if they don't report those files to the installer? Nope. In linux it is treated as a bug when that happens. In Android, it requires reinstalling your system when that happens.
I care because it's a major reason why Windows has to be reinstalled fairly frequently if you want to maintain performance, assuming you install a lot of programs.

Optimal solution, IMO: kill the registry.
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kohlrak: Now i did. The answer's still the same, except people don't care about proper uninstallation. Why use MSI when you can do it with EXE? Moreover, can you rely on it to get all files left over by a program if they don't report those files to the installer? Nope. In linux it is treated as a bug when that happens. In Android, it requires reinstalling your system when that happens.
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richlind33: I care because it's a major reason why Windows has to be reinstalled fairly frequently if you want to maintain performance, assuming you install a lot of programs.

Optimal solution, IMO: kill the registry.
In reality, it doesn't trump the main reason for multiple windows reinstalls: viruses, which microsoft is working on.

I understand the registry, though, and i think that is one of MS' advantages. The registry is like a DBMS of source, but it's never properly used. Resolution preferences, keyboard preferences (to some degree), etc. should be the main use of the registry, as well as installation. That said, the registry should not really be written to by anything other than a microsoft program and a game. Alot of people use the registry for the sake of using the registry, since it's "a thing" and need some way of proving they're "a well-rounded programmer."
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richlind33: Windows has to be reinstalled fairly frequently if you want to maintain performance, assuming you install a lot of programs.
Optimal solution, IMO: kill the registry.
I agree that Windows tends to get worse with time but.. reinstalling it "fairly frequently"?
I've installed Win7 two years ago, currently I have ~100 programs and I haven't noticed much degradation in performance yet.
It surely depends on what crap you add and if you keep the system clean, though..

Btw yes, Windows' registry is a bit of a mess.
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richlind33: Windows has to be reinstalled fairly frequently if you want to maintain performance, assuming you install a lot of programs.
Optimal solution, IMO: kill the registry.
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phaolo: I agree that Windows tends to get worse with time but.. reinstalling it "fairly frequently"?
I've installed Win7 two years ago, currently I have ~100 programs and I haven't noticed much degradation in performance yet.
It surely depends on what crap you add and if you keep the system clean, though..

Btw yes, Windows' registry is a bit of a mess.
1-2 times a year, for me. Only been on win10 for a bit more than a month, so maybe it's less of an issue. Hopefully.
by forcing devs to move to metal, they basically are saying "we want games for ONLY our machines" because it's not a cross-platform API set. So, no civ VI cross platform, thus reducing potential games as the graphics part needs to be recoded for metal entirely (VI for mac will need to be brought from the ipad as a port as that is metal I think. Otherwise, it needsa a graphics engine overhaul). I guess if I go into a mac store and get pushed a computer from them, I'll ask "how well does it run Final Fantasy XV", already knowing the answer (it can't) or "how well does it run Galactic Civilizations III without booting into windows" (again, I don't think it can)
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BlackThorny: I would like to see data confirming these numbers. Is Gog entire user base even consists more then 1/12 of Steam's?
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mechmouse: Developers announced selling 1 million copies of Original Sin 2, but steam spy showed 920,000

I've spoke to many developers, who can't give exact figures due to NDA's but confirm sales are in the 5-10% range with some reporting in the lower 10-20% range.

I think 8% which is about 1 in 12 is a fair figure, far better than the <1.5% for mac
That's a rather comforting notion, nice to see Gog has significant value to developers, so there still is hope for us all.
This actually means Gog users are much more avid buyers (sale conversions) than Steam ones (even including third party bundles)!
Do you happen to extrapolate data on linux purchases as well? I always wondered how those compare in Steam vs Gog.

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richlind33: I care because it's a major reason why Windows has to be reinstalled fairly frequently if you want to maintain performance, assuming you install a lot of programs.

Optimal solution, IMO: kill the registry.
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kohlrak: In reality, it doesn't trump the main reason for multiple windows reinstalls: viruses, which microsoft is working on.

I understand the registry, though, and i think that is one of MS' advantages. The registry is like a DBMS of source, but it's never properly used. Resolution preferences, keyboard preferences (to some degree), etc. should be the main use of the registry, as well as installation. That said, the registry should not really be written to by anything other than a microsoft program and a game. Alot of people use the registry for the sake of using the registry, since it's "a thing" and need some way of proving they're "a well-rounded programmer."
Well other then a game every now and then, virtually all the software I use is the portable version. I have yet to see a disadvantage.
Still windows degrades, especially particularly bad versions like 8 that seem to be built to die with all that bloatware.
Post edited June 08, 2018 by BlackThorny
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kohlrak: In reality, it doesn't trump the main reason for multiple windows reinstalls: viruses, which microsoft is working on.

I understand the registry, though, and i think that is one of MS' advantages. The registry is like a DBMS of source, but it's never properly used. Resolution preferences, keyboard preferences (to some degree), etc. should be the main use of the registry, as well as installation. That said, the registry should not really be written to by anything other than a microsoft program and a game. Alot of people use the registry for the sake of using the registry, since it's "a thing" and need some way of proving they're "a well-rounded programmer."
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BlackThorny: Well other then a game every now and then, virtually all the software I use is the portable version. I have yet to see a disadvantage.
Still windows degrades, especially particularly bad versions like 8 that seem to be built to die with all that bloatware.
Right: windows is poorly designed. Too many structures rely on each other. On startup, my taskbar is frozen for a good 5 or 10 minutes, because of some minor hard drive corruption. However, i noticed that chkdsk deletes good files, too, which caused me some problems in oblivion where it kept files, but deleted the data in the files making them empty. When windows encounters the problem, it takes a while before giving up, and then it doesn't bother fixing the problem by asking permission to rewrite the config file so that it gets rid of the corruption.
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wizisi2k: by forcing devs to move to metal, they basically are saying "we want games for ONLY our machines" because it's not a cross-platform API set. So, no civ VI cross platform, thus reducing potential games as the graphics part needs to be recoded for metal entirely (VI for mac will need to be brought from the ipad as a port as that is metal I think. Otherwise, it needsa a graphics engine overhaul). I guess if I go into a mac store and get pushed a computer from them, I'll ask "how well does it run Final Fantasy XV", already knowing the answer (it can't) or "how well does it run Galactic Civilizations III without booting into windows" (again, I don't think it can)
Well that's not too much of a bottleneck if you're a hard core gamer. Load in windows via bootcamp and game away.

On the Mac note I'm not really a fan myself but I did see a recent article about why most programmers use a Mac. Short answer is Unix command-line, reasonable resale value compared to competition, good QA control historically, and to build any software products for a Mac or iOS requires a Mac (yes even windows Xamarin requires it because Apple's EULA states that it does).