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F4LL0UT: But not every game has formal combat states, does it? (as dtgreene incidentally addressed in her post)

That said, the Halo series actually combines checking the combat state with automatic checkpoints. Already the first game very accurately recognised safe situations (even during very brief pauses, better than a player ever could) and would save automatically then. There were also other factors at play like how long it's been since the last save and whatnot. It's a pretty brilliant solution that keeps the challenges real while taking the responsibility of save management off the player.
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idbeholdME: I mean, in FPS, it's pretty clear. Same for RPGs. Of course there will always be exceptions and genres where this doesn't apply.
I would argue that it's not clear for FPS and FPS-like games. Perhaps there's an enemy that is physically near you, but on the other side of the wall, and the game thinks that enemy, which will never reach you, is in combat with you. Since the game doesn't have separate combat and non-combat modes, the game has to do fuzzier checks to see if the player is in combat, and the game sometimes gets those checks wrong.

In an RPG, on the other hand, it is pretty clear, provided that the RPG uses a separate screen for combat. Games like TES: Arena, on the other hand, don't have such clear distinctions; in fact, games like TES: Arena are best considered to be FPSes rather than RPGs for the purpose of this discussion!

I wouldn't trust a game to check to see if the player is in combat in games that don't have a clear combat/non-combat separation.

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idbeholdME: Unless the game is built around dying, respawning, re-playing and checkpoints in general (Dark Souls, roguelikes etc.) manual saves should always be an option.
This makes me think of Syoban Action, which is built around dying and respawning, but would not be ruined by a save anywhere feature (provided the player can still choose to respawn at the last check point, as there are situations (sometimes not obvious) where, though you haven't died, the only way out is to die because there's no way to continue otherwise). Thing is, that game is all about avoiding invisible traps. With that said, with only checkpoint respawns, there is an interesting challenge in this game; the player needs to keep track of all the traps in their head in order to continue. If you forget a trap, you will die. (Essentially, the game becomes a test of the player's memory of where the traps are.)


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idbeholdME: Auto adjusting difficulty is the next worst thing that could happen. I want to find a way to overcome the challenge, not have the game suddenly get easy just because it thinks I might get annoyed. I chose the difficulty at the game start, I either make it through or restart at a lower difficulty/reduce the difficulty of my OWN volition, not because the game/dev thinks it is appropriate. Just catering to casual gamers. If that feature can be turned off, no problems-do whatever you want but if you force it on me, then I would probably stop playing right there.
This makes me think of the level scaling in a few games, where being a higher level makes the enemies stronger. (Off hand, I can think of Final Fantasy 8, Wizardry 8, Oblivion, and the NES versions of Ultima 3 and 4 that do this.) I think that's a bad way to scale difficulty, and a better way would be to scale enemies based off how many major tasks have been completed (or, in FF8's case, since the game is linear just use area-based enemy scaling).

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idbeholdME: If there is something urgent or the plot needs to move, you are usually prevented from backtracking
For genres where backtracking is the norm (like RPGs and Metroidvanias), I highly dislike it when a game prevents backtracking; instead of changing the game to fit the urgent plot, the plot should be changed to allow for backtracking.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by dtgreene
I do not miss the totally WTF puzzles from classic graphic adventure games such as Sam and Max - Hit the Road, comical though it was.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by Sat42
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idbeholdME: Players tend to optimize their performance but there are tons people who would never use bugs/exploits that reduce fun to gain an unintended advantage. And assuming manual saves/quick saves make the game less fun is a good joke. I have found exactly the opposite to be true. I can try all those "what if" situations. "Can I make that jump?". "Or is there a secret in that seemingly inescapable pit?". With checkpoints, I would not bother. Not to mention that checkpoints are much more prone to bugs. In case a normal save bugs out, just load the previous one. Bugged checkpoint means restarting the level at best, whole game at worst.
With checkpoints, I often like to do my experiment immediately after reaching one, so I can then quit and reload as if the experiment hadn't happened.

Also, when it comes to exploits there's the whole question of what is an exploit and what isn't. Sometimes, developers choose to patch exploits that were actually fun to use and didn't break the game; sometimes, a clearly intended feature of the game is game breaking (like Final Fantasy 7's Knights of the Round materia; who thought *that* was even remotely close to being balanced?).

One interesting thing about certain glitches is that, in some cases, it turns avoiding a crash or softlock into part of the challenge, rather than having the crash or softlock being something the developer should fix.
- Copy-protection
- Clunky UIs
- Stiff or delayed character movements/actions, creating artificial difficulty (granted cinematic platformers such as Prince of Persia are excused; it suited them)
- No mouselook in FPSs
- Configuration programs separate from the main executable
- Fiddling with sound card settings
- Fiddling with joystick settings
- Finding the optimal MIDI font or what have you
- Crappy hit-detection
- 90s CGI cutscenes (for the most part; some are charming)
- Extreme difficulty as a means to prolong what would otherwise be a very short game
- Flat-shaded polygons (ugh.. Virtua Figher, A-10 Cuba, F/A-18 Hornet 3.0, Hard Drivin' - go all take a hike and don't come back)
- Vector-based 3D; even worse
- Archaic default control schemes (arrow keys instead of WASD, early console FPSs et al.)
- Swapping floppies (looking at you, Amiga!!)
- Only direct IP or modem-to-modem options for multiplayer
- Really wanting to play a PC game but finding I can't because I had a Mac and it wasn't out for the Mac
- CD-based remasters and re-releases replacing classic MIDI soundtracks with mediocre Redbook audio tracks with no character; just because they had to justify the CD format with summit
- No save game functionality in earlier console games
- No auto-mapping in Dungeon Crawlers, having to look up journal entries in a physical manual and stumping game mechanics
- RTSs w/o build-queues, attack-moves and all the other stuff we take for granted
- Graphical adventure games with text-parsers, coz point & click wasn't invented yet
Post edited October 16, 2018 by flamming_python
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flamming_python: - Copy-protection
- Clunky UIs
- Really wanting to play a PC game but finding I can't because I had a Mac and it wasn't out for the Mac
Aren't those still a thing?
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flamming_python: - Copy-protection
- Clunky UIs
- Really wanting to play a PC game but finding I can't because I had a Mac and it wasn't out for the Mac
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OldFatGuy: Aren't those still a thing?
Even the worst UIs aren't as clunky as the old days.
And I don't own a Mac anymore :)
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jonridan: What I don't miss the most, or rather hate nowadays in old games, is the lack of color depth. Games had colors, a lot, yeah... But it was like maybe 32 colors in total. Once 16bit graphics became the norm eveything looked nicer. I don't care about resolution, I don't care about dynamic lighting, and stuff like that, but I just can't stand lack of variety within colors.
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Darvond: I take it the Brown and Bloom phase was rough?
It was rough because there were no colors hahaha... But there lots of brown xD Like 32 bits of brown depth.
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AB2012: 2. Manually editing config.sys and autoexec.bat to get the "right" amount of memory (Extended vs Expanded) on 1-4MB systems, which always seemed to differ from one game to the next
Whew, DOS memory management was a pain. Boot disk for free memory. A few games had oddly specific memory requrements.
General protection errors or something other in windows 3.
Sound card setup; That irq didn't work, try this one.
CGA and EGA. I never looked back once I saw the glory of SVGA.
5 1/4" floppies.

My first computer game purchase was King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella, on seven 5 1/4" disks. I don't know about other computers, but my Apple IIgs probably took at least a couple of minutes to load a new screen, making a wretched cacophany of grinding and clanking. Anyone would have been excused for assuming the device was shredding a disk rather than reading it.

That load time wouldn't have been so bad if I didn't have to swap a disk out almost every time I hit the edge of a screen. Twenty seconds to walk across, two minutes to load. And an ogre chasing me right back again was good for a double load.

Of course, my time was my own in those days.
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DavidOrion93: General protection errors or something other in windows 3.
They still happen; it's just that the message is changed, and that such bugs no longer affect the stability of the rest of the system.

On modern Windows, I believe the message talks about the program performing an "illegal operation". On Linux, you get a segmentation fault. (I don't know how Mac OS treats this.)

Even modern consoles can display such messages; I believe the Nintendo Switch version of Celeste would occasionally crash after a chapter is completed (fortunately *after* the auto-save).

That reminds me of one thing I don't miss, or rather a couple:
* Having to wait until the light goes off before removing the floppy disk from the computer.
* Having to hold RESET while turning off the POWER, or else risking losing save data. (Dragon Warrior 2 made a cute little joke out of it; the RESET button was called the "REST" button.
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Breja: **CHOP**

And honestly, playing Morrowind I've come to appreciate some of the much hated "handholding" elements of newer games like fast travel and objectives clearly marked on your map. I get it that it feels like dumbing down and artificial and all that, and that making your own way haphazardly around and looking for things just based on directions you were given is more authentic and can be quite rewarding, but with time it just becomes a pain in the ass. The directions can often be vague, if not outright wrong, and losing hours on looking for something isn't much fun no matter how "authentic" it feels. Even more so the lack of fast travel. Every time I need to sell my loot, or train up some skill I have to make the same trip back and forth, to one city, to another, and so on... it gets incredibly tedious.

I play games to have fun. I don't mind a challenge, but I don't want to waste my time on pointlessly tedious or frustrating stuff.
Yes Fallout 4 on survival mode IF I HAVE TO TRAIPSE ONE MORE MOTHERF*CKING TIME ACROSS HALF THE "USA" in game I'm going to scream!

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flamming_python: - Copy-protection
- Clunky UIs
- Stiff or delayed character movements/actions, creating artificial difficulty (granted cinematic platformers such as Prince of Persia are excused; it suited them)
- No mouselook in FPSs
- Configuration programs separate from the main executable
- Fiddling with sound card settings
- Fiddling with joystick settings
- Finding the optimal MIDI font or what have you
- Crappy hit-detection
- 90s CGI cutscenes (for the most part; some are charming)
- Extreme difficulty as a means to prolong what would otherwise be a very short game
- Flat-shaded polygons (ugh.. Virtua Figher, A-10 Cuba, F/A-18 Hornet 3.0, Hard Drivin' - go all take a hike and don't come back)
- Vector-based 3D; even worse
- Archaic default control schemes (arrow keys instead of WASD, early console FPSs et al.)
- Swapping floppies (looking at you, Amiga!!)
- Only direct IP or modem-to-modem options for multiplayer
- Really wanting to play a PC game but finding I can't because I had a Mac and it wasn't out for the Mac
- CD-based remasters and re-releases replacing classic MIDI soundtracks with mediocre Redbook audio tracks with no character; just because they had to justify the CD format with summit
- No save game functionality in earlier console games
- No auto-mapping in Dungeon Crawlers, having to look up journal entries in a physical manual and stumping game mechanics
- RTSs w/o build-queues, attack-moves and all the other stuff we take for granted
- Graphical adventure games with text-parsers, coz point & click wasn't invented yet
^THIS^
Also games THAT LOCKED RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON Without it being able to be remapped!
Post edited October 16, 2018 by fr33kSh0w2012
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CymTyr: Bad controls and DRM in the form of requiring a manual to get through the game, literally.
Yes!

In the Manual on page 45 what is the 15th word?

GRR...RRRRRRR...MOTHERF*CKER!
Post edited October 16, 2018 by fr33kSh0w2012
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MartiusR: 5. Fighting with configuration in DOS games - I really, really liked plenty of DOS games. But I remember well how I was forced to fight with their configuration back in Windows 95/98 era. Especially in terms of sound - I didn't had any "popular" model of sound card in my computer, therefore I needed to make experiments with choosing some sound blaster model (not having idea whats difference between SB pro, SB II etc) and those multiple channels and other stuff like that. I still had to play in many DOS games in absolute silence, or only with CD_audio music. So glad that nowadays I've got stuff like DosBox + D-fend (especially for D-fend, "naked" DosBox is not very intuitive), and due to the fact that GOG is selling games already configured, I don't need to bother even with some simplified configuration. Yay.
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andysheets1975: This right here. Buying a new game and taking it home only to gird yourself for a potentially lengthy and suspenseful campaign just to get the thing installed properly. I've seen people say they like to stick to consoles because PC games aren't plug-and-play, but they have no idea how much easier PC games are now compared to the 80s and 90s. This and the loading times and disk-swapping are what I don't miss at all.
In fact, I would risk the thesis that up from Windows 95/98 gaming on PC became much easier. I know that there were still, from time to time, some issues like system errors or compatibility issues (plus necessity to upgrade hardwere more often than nowadays), but as far as I remember (at least from my experience), installing and playing games were back then rather simple and straightforward (configuration was rather limited to adjusting details level and choosing 3D accelerator (if you had any :P) for 3D games.
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flamming_python: - Clunky UIs
Still exist in games today. Easily. Tons of examples, especially from indie developers and even bigger ones. Best example: Every "game" from Bethesda to this day.

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flamming_python: - Configuration programs separate from the main executable
To some degreee, still exist, only that some (like unity games) just start this menu automatically before the game starts)

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flamming_python: - Crappy hit-detection
Still exists to this day. Good example: The Crash Bandicoot Re-Release. Weird hit detection is more widespread than you think.

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flamming_python: - 90s CGI cutscenes (for the most part; some are charming)
You can stll find horrible CGI Cutscenes in indie games today.

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flamming_python: - Extreme difficulty as a means to prolong what would otherwise be a very short game
From Super Meat Boy to Overcooked 2: It's still a thing and even quite popular.

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flamming_python: - Archaic default control schemes (arrow keys instead of WASD, early console FPSs et al.)
LOL! That's just ignorance on your end. There's nothing archaic about using the arrow keys. While i use WASD, i know a lot of left-handed people using the arrow keys or the numeric block or any other thing that is more comfortable to them, then the right hand only WASD. Then there are also right handed people who indeed prefer other configurations. It's not archaic just because the industry decided "Everybody is right handed, so everybody uses WASD"

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flamming_python: - Only direct IP or modem-to-modem options for multiplayer
They still exist.

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flamming_python: - Really wanting to play a PC game but finding I can't because I had a Mac and it wasn't out for the Mac
Still a thing, hence why so many Mac Users (though not as severe as the penguin fans) cry on all game forums and youtube about them not getting any ports.

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flamming_python: - CD-based remasters and re-releases replacing classic MIDI soundtracks with mediocre Redbook audio tracks with no character; just because they had to justify the CD format with summit
Not as bad as "We can't afford to re-license music", see Mafia, the old GTA's and so on.

You know that the topic is about things that don't exist today anymore and not stuff that still is widespread in games everywhere, even more popular (insane difficulty for extra challenge and most of those games are short) than it was 15-20 years ago.
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dtgreene: With checkpoints, I often like to do my experiment immediately after reaching one, so I can then quit and reload as if the experiment hadn't happened.

Also, when it comes to exploits there's the whole question of what is an exploit and what isn't. Sometimes, developers choose to patch exploits that were actually fun to use and didn't break the game; sometimes, a clearly intended feature of the game is game breaking (like Final Fantasy 7's Knights of the Round materia; who thought *that* was even remotely close to being balanced?).

One interesting thing about certain glitches is that, in some cases, it turns avoiding a crash or softlock into part of the challenge, rather than having the crash or softlock being something the developer should fix.
A good thought and the only course of action available to you in that case. But you end up using up a one off checkpoint which then results in the following sequence being even longer before you reach the next checkpoint. And what if there are no viable, close-by checkpoints available to you for experimenting? Or you already used up all of them in the area? You are out of luck.

Regarding exploit or game breaking feature, that is up to the player to decide if he wants to partake or not. I've encountered many people who were absolutely fine with straight up cheating, using any exploit available to them and actively looking them up. There are also people who wouldn't use a massive advantage even if it was a part of a feature. Like creating Big Lyrium potions in Dragon Age Origins and selling them for more than the cost of the resources used to make them. Yes, I can completely validly make infinite money in the game. But why would I do that though if it completely trivializes and imbalances game?
Everyone enjoys something different and that is completely fine.