Posted January 01, 2014
pseudonymous
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pseudonymous Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2009
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UniversalWolf
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UniversalWolf Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2011
From United States
Posted January 01, 2014
JA2 is indeed a great game, and there are some similarities with Fallout, so I understand where you're coming from there. I've often thought about how insanely good Fallout would be if the combat were more hardcore like JA2.
Since you're a JA2 fan, you definitely might enjoy Fallout Tactics. It's not to be considered as a sequel, but more as a combat-oriented spinoff. It's not as great as the original Fallouts, and not quite as good as JA2, but it's not a bad game at all if you like turn-based combat.
You might also like Silent Storm Gold, which is available on here on GOG. It's another turn-based combat game -- as far as the combat mechanics themselves go, the best one IMO. For one thing it has destructable environments. I knew I was going to like it when one of my soldiers killed an enemy by shooting up through the floor of a building with a machine gun...and the corpse fell down through the hole.
You are aware of the fan-made 1.13 patch for JA2, aren't you? If not you should check it out. Look for a fan site called Bear's Pit. It will be well worth investigating.
Finally, I don't think anyone has mentioned one of the best inventory improvements in Fallout 2: the "Take All" button, as in you press one button to take everything from a container or a corpse. Another big improvement is that the counter for picking up specific numbers of objects goes up to 99999 instead of 9999, so if you want to pick up exactly 34651 caps, all you have to do is type in the number.
Since you're a JA2 fan, you definitely might enjoy Fallout Tactics. It's not to be considered as a sequel, but more as a combat-oriented spinoff. It's not as great as the original Fallouts, and not quite as good as JA2, but it's not a bad game at all if you like turn-based combat.
You might also like Silent Storm Gold, which is available on here on GOG. It's another turn-based combat game -- as far as the combat mechanics themselves go, the best one IMO. For one thing it has destructable environments. I knew I was going to like it when one of my soldiers killed an enemy by shooting up through the floor of a building with a machine gun...and the corpse fell down through the hole.
You are aware of the fan-made 1.13 patch for JA2, aren't you? If not you should check it out. Look for a fan site called Bear's Pit. It will be well worth investigating.
Finally, I don't think anyone has mentioned one of the best inventory improvements in Fallout 2: the "Take All" button, as in you press one button to take everything from a container or a corpse. Another big improvement is that the counter for picking up specific numbers of objects goes up to 99999 instead of 9999, so if you want to pick up exactly 34651 caps, all you have to do is type in the number.
Post edited January 01, 2014 by UniversalWolf
CharlesEllis
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CharlesEllis Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2013
From United States
Posted January 02, 2014
jonbee77: One of hte troubles I had with mutants was whether to switch to Tesla or Combat armor. Many of the times there'd be multiple mutants and they'd be using different guns. I'd use Combat armor for miniguns and flamers and close combat, but the problem is there're laser gatling guns that looks just like the miniguns. I also had a problem seeing the difference between flamers and plasma or laser rifles. I did all this to reduce the freak crits and because I didn't have power armor, but I'm not sure if it really helped much. I also got confused about whether Psycho helped for laser or plasma or fire or explosive attacks. I eventually decided it only helped against normal attacks.
One of the tactics was to put mutants between me and mutants with the gatling or minigun. They'd end up shooting each other. It reminded me of when I'd maneuver enemies onto traps in Eschalon Book I to kill them.
And yer right the Move Bonus perks helped me to put distance between me and the mutant so I can use cover. However, it ends up being very time consuming to kite mutants. Dying is that much more painful because you have to repeat.
At one point I didn't know if I could use plasma grenades without the energy weapons skill, but they worked. On that issue, I actually put more points into throwing because I found grenades to be useful against the mutants.
The military base weird... disabling some of the emitters took me a while and I'm still confused how it works. I also feel guilty I killed Sarah's lover. I almost shot her to see if she had a key or something, but I figured something else out.
If I played again, I'd probably tag the Energy Weapons skill instead of First Aid and I'd put more points into throwing and speech. I'd probably also change my perks. There're so many perks, but I like that.
First Aid just seems to be a way to reduce the amount of stimpaks you use by a small amount. It does also allow you to heal your hireling, but you can give them stimpaks too. I just think its effectiveness was too low or something becaues it seemed bleh.
I only injured a limb once and was able to cure it without even putting any points in Doctor or tagging it. I didn't find out whether there're any doctors in the game to heal a limb. All I tried was the preacher near the water merchants and he wouldn't heal it.
If you can't quite tell what they are armed with, that's what the Awareness perk is for. It will tell you what weapon they have equipped and how much HP they have left. Useful for picking off the ones that are almost dead so that Ian doesn't waste a full burst on an enemy with only 1 HP left. One of the tactics was to put mutants between me and mutants with the gatling or minigun. They'd end up shooting each other. It reminded me of when I'd maneuver enemies onto traps in Eschalon Book I to kill them.
And yer right the Move Bonus perks helped me to put distance between me and the mutant so I can use cover. However, it ends up being very time consuming to kite mutants. Dying is that much more painful because you have to repeat.
At one point I didn't know if I could use plasma grenades without the energy weapons skill, but they worked. On that issue, I actually put more points into throwing because I found grenades to be useful against the mutants.
The military base weird... disabling some of the emitters took me a while and I'm still confused how it works. I also feel guilty I killed Sarah's lover. I almost shot her to see if she had a key or something, but I figured something else out.
If I played again, I'd probably tag the Energy Weapons skill instead of First Aid and I'd put more points into throwing and speech. I'd probably also change my perks. There're so many perks, but I like that.
First Aid just seems to be a way to reduce the amount of stimpaks you use by a small amount. It does also allow you to heal your hireling, but you can give them stimpaks too. I just think its effectiveness was too low or something becaues it seemed bleh.
I only injured a limb once and was able to cure it without even putting any points in Doctor or tagging it. I didn't find out whether there're any doctors in the game to heal a limb. All I tried was the preacher near the water merchants and he wouldn't heal it.
I don't recall exactly what Psycho does, but if you use a dose your character screen should show you what effect it has on your damage resistance. The main use I got out of First Aid was killing time waiting for explosives I had set to go off in locations where the game wouldn't let me rest instead.
Moving so that your enemies shoot each other is a good tactic. If you're the one with the minigun, you can line them up and target the one in back to take them both out sometimes. And if you didn't take the Fast Shot trait, one way to deal with the minigun and plasma rifle-armed mutants is to target their arms. If you cripple an arm, they can't use their weapons. Those last two tactics are especially effective with the Sniper and Better Criticals perks and a high Luck. Oh, and if you have most of the screen between you and a group of supermutants, instead of ducking behind cover, you might try standing in a choke point, such as the hex just the other side of a doorway from them. The ones with ranged weapons will generally stay put and shoot at you as long as you are in sight, but the distance will lower their hit probability. The ones with melee weapons (or crippled arms) will advance toward you, soaking up fire from their fellows, but only one will be able to attack you when they finally reach you.
Speaking of crippled limbs, I don't recall any doctors in the game that can heal them, though there are some in Fallout 2. I do remember them being fairly easy to heal on your own, so it's mainly a problem in the fight where it happens. Make sure you always have the most powerful available one-handed weapon and a decent supply of ammo for it in your inventory. I got caught without one in the Navarro base in Fallout 2 and had to run for it.
There are supposed to be four ways to deal with the yellow force fields in the Military Base. If you fiddle with the computer on the first level that controls them and pass a Gambling skill check, then use your Science skill on it, that is supposed to turn them off. Unfortunately, that one is bugged and doesn't work. Dunno if there's a patch that fixes that. If you've picked up a radio by that point, you can use it on that same computer (the same way you'd use a stimpack from your inventory on an NPC). Put the radio in a weapon slot and you can use it toggle the force fields on and off. It not only helps you penetrate the base, but you can also keep Dogmeat penned up so he doesn't get killed. With a decent Repair skill you can turn an emitter off temporarily by using Repair or a tool on it. Quickest way is to keep a tool in a weapon slot. Finally, you can disable one permanently with explosives.
Oh, and another couple of quests that often get missed. If you return to the Vault between 30 and 100 days into the game before getting the water chip, you can calm down some rebels and catch a water thief.
jonbee77
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jonbee77 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From United States
Posted January 02, 2014
CharlesEllis: If you can't quite tell what they are armed with, that's what the Awareness perk is for. It will tell you what weapon they have equipped and how much HP they have left. Useful for picking off the ones that are almost dead so that Ian doesn't waste a full burst on an enemy with only 1 HP left.
I don't recall exactly what Psycho does, but if you use a dose your character screen should show you what effect it has on your damage resistance. The main use I got out of First Aid was killing time waiting for explosives I had set to go off in locations where the game wouldn't let me rest instead.
Moving so that your enemies shoot each other is a good tactic. If you're the one with the minigun, you can line them up and target the one in back to take them both out sometimes. And if you didn't take the Fast Shot trait, one way to deal with the minigun and plasma rifle-armed mutants is to target their arms. If you cripple an arm, they can't use their weapons. Those last two tactics are especially effective with the Sniper and Better Criticals perks and a high Luck. Oh, and if you have most of the screen between you and a group of supermutants, instead of ducking behind cover, you might try standing in a choke point, such as the hex just the other side of a doorway from them. The ones with ranged weapons will generally stay put and shoot at you as long as you are in sight, but the distance will lower their hit probability. The ones with melee weapons (or crippled arms) will advance toward you, soaking up fire from their fellows, but only one will be able to attack you when they finally reach you.
Speaking of crippled limbs, I don't recall any doctors in the game that can heal them, though there are some in Fallout 2. I do remember them being fairly easy to heal on your own, so it's mainly a problem in the fight where it happens. Make sure you always have the most powerful available one-handed weapon and a decent supply of ammo for it in your inventory. I got caught without one in the Navarro base in Fallout 2 and had to run for it.
There are supposed to be four ways to deal with the yellow force fields in the Military Base. If you fiddle with the computer on the first level that controls them and pass a Gambling skill check, then use your Science skill on it, that is supposed to turn them off. Unfortunately, that one is bugged and doesn't work. Dunno if there's a patch that fixes that. If you've picked up a radio by that point, you can use it on that same computer (the same way you'd use a stimpack from your inventory on an NPC). Put the radio in a weapon slot and you can use it toggle the force fields on and off. It not only helps you penetrate the base, but you can also keep Dogmeat penned up so he doesn't get killed. With a decent Repair skill you can turn an emitter off temporarily by using Repair or a tool on it. Quickest way is to keep a tool in a weapon slot. Finally, you can disable one permanently with explosives.
Oh, and another couple of quests that often get missed. If you return to the Vault between 30 and 100 days into the game before getting the water chip, you can calm down some rebels and catch a water thief.
S2: Silent Storm Gold Edition? Awesome, thanks! Looks like something else I'll have to get. It looks amazing. I don't recall exactly what Psycho does, but if you use a dose your character screen should show you what effect it has on your damage resistance. The main use I got out of First Aid was killing time waiting for explosives I had set to go off in locations where the game wouldn't let me rest instead.
Moving so that your enemies shoot each other is a good tactic. If you're the one with the minigun, you can line them up and target the one in back to take them both out sometimes. And if you didn't take the Fast Shot trait, one way to deal with the minigun and plasma rifle-armed mutants is to target their arms. If you cripple an arm, they can't use their weapons. Those last two tactics are especially effective with the Sniper and Better Criticals perks and a high Luck. Oh, and if you have most of the screen between you and a group of supermutants, instead of ducking behind cover, you might try standing in a choke point, such as the hex just the other side of a doorway from them. The ones with ranged weapons will generally stay put and shoot at you as long as you are in sight, but the distance will lower their hit probability. The ones with melee weapons (or crippled arms) will advance toward you, soaking up fire from their fellows, but only one will be able to attack you when they finally reach you.
Speaking of crippled limbs, I don't recall any doctors in the game that can heal them, though there are some in Fallout 2. I do remember them being fairly easy to heal on your own, so it's mainly a problem in the fight where it happens. Make sure you always have the most powerful available one-handed weapon and a decent supply of ammo for it in your inventory. I got caught without one in the Navarro base in Fallout 2 and had to run for it.
There are supposed to be four ways to deal with the yellow force fields in the Military Base. If you fiddle with the computer on the first level that controls them and pass a Gambling skill check, then use your Science skill on it, that is supposed to turn them off. Unfortunately, that one is bugged and doesn't work. Dunno if there's a patch that fixes that. If you've picked up a radio by that point, you can use it on that same computer (the same way you'd use a stimpack from your inventory on an NPC). Put the radio in a weapon slot and you can use it toggle the force fields on and off. It not only helps you penetrate the base, but you can also keep Dogmeat penned up so he doesn't get killed. With a decent Repair skill you can turn an emitter off temporarily by using Repair or a tool on it. Quickest way is to keep a tool in a weapon slot. Finally, you can disable one permanently with explosives.
Oh, and another couple of quests that often get missed. If you return to the Vault between 30 and 100 days into the game before getting the water chip, you can calm down some rebels and catch a water thief.
I am also interested in Wages of War and the Commandos series and Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale, as I believe they're either turn-based or heavy on tactical gameplay. Have you played any of those?
Love your other comments. I don't think I'll play Fallout 1 again so soon. Got my eyes set on Fallout 2. However, I know I probably missed a lot. I think my best chance at seeing new content in FO1 is to play a smarter character with higher speech or a thief. To be painfully honest, I don't think I missed enough to draw me back into FO1. I really have tried the past couple days to replay it, but it's not happenin. Same thing happened with Eschalon Book I, but Eschalon Book I was even worse since it had less content.
Btw, of the 4 hirelings in FO1, I used Ian and Katja. Didn't find any others. Don't tell me who they're, but can you give me an idea how much interesting gaming can be found by talking to them and getting them to join you?
Post edited January 02, 2014 by jonbee77
UniversalWolf
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UniversalWolf Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2011
From United States
Posted January 02, 2014
ToEE is a very flawed game (primarily due to publisher pressure on Troika to release it before it was fully tested), but the turn-based combat is superb. There's no other game that more accurately simulates true P-n-P D&D rules.
If you love TB combat, I'd say it's a must-buy. You'll want to check out the Circle of Eight modpack and be aware that the game starts out slow, so give it some time before you get frustrated.
Ian and Katja...yes, you didn't get them all, and I won't tell you who you missed. I can tell from your comments that Fallout already has you hooked though. You're thinking about what you'll do different the next time you play it. And the next time. And the next. ;)
If you love TB combat, I'd say it's a must-buy. You'll want to check out the Circle of Eight modpack and be aware that the game starts out slow, so give it some time before you get frustrated.
Ian and Katja...yes, you didn't get them all, and I won't tell you who you missed. I can tell from your comments that Fallout already has you hooked though. You're thinking about what you'll do different the next time you play it. And the next time. And the next. ;)
Post edited January 02, 2014 by UniversalWolf
CharlesEllis
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CharlesEllis Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2013
From United States
Posted January 02, 2014
jonbee77: Love your other comments. I don't think I'll play Fallout 1 again so soon. Got my eyes set on Fallout 2. However, I know I probably missed a lot. I think my best chance at seeing new content in FO1 is to play a smarter character with higher speech or a thief. To be painfully honest, I don't think I missed enough to draw me back into FO1. I really have tried the past couple days to replay it, but it's not happenin.
Much of my strategy/mechanics advice also applies to Fallout2, at least the ones not relating to specific quests and people. I prefer Fallout2 myself, but haven't been able to play either in years because the copies I have on disk aren't compatible with this computer. Glad I found gog just in time for the giveaway. Keep in mind most quests have a sneaky and/or diplomatic solution. For example, there's a sneaky way to deal with the Military Base and both sneaky and diplomatic ways to deal with the Master. Fallout2 is bigger and more complex, the NPCs are more controllable and actually level up, and you can find even niftier weapons. Not to mention the car. There are lots more NPCs, varying from completely useless to extremely useful. You can even have theme teams of NPCs, like three robots, or four dogs, or a deathclaw, ghoul, and supermutant combo.
Jarmo
- censored -
Jarmo Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Jan 2009
From Finland
Posted January 03, 2014
jonbee77: I am also interested in Wages of War and the Commandos series and Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale, as I believe they're either turn-based or heavy on tactical gameplay. Have you played any of those?
Temple of Elemental Evil is brilliant. Or in other words, it's actually a crappy game but one with the best combat ever. Difficult as hell to learn and unfairly difficult fights early on. But it's great. Beautiful also. Icewind Dales are also make your own party dungeon crawlers with tactical fights upon fights. The gameplay, graphics quality and animations and the general feel is the same as in BG2.
I don't think I'll play Fallout 1 again so soon. Got my eyes set on Fallout 2. However, I know I probably missed a lot. I think my best chance at seeing new content in FO1 is to play a smarter character with higher speech or a thief.
Btw, of the 4 hirelings in FO1, I used Ian and Katja. Didn't find any others. Don't tell me who they're, but can you give me an idea how much interesting gaming can be found by talking to them and getting them to join you?
All the followers are kind of dumb and mute. FO2 is much, much better here.
darthspudius
Steam is Power!
darthspudius Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2011
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UniversalWolf
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UniversalWolf Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2011
From United States
Posted April 14, 2014
jonbee77: The underlying flaw with this game is a flaw common to most of the classic games. They almost all encourage you to save scum.
darthspudius: Am I the only one who has just learned this stupid phrase "Save scum"? Save-scumming (or scumming in general) is an ancient technique in the world of computer games. I'm not sure how old the term is, but it goes back to the early 90s at least.
And FWIW I don't think Fallout forces the player to save scum.
jonbee77
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jonbee77 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From United States
Posted April 20, 2014
UniversalWolf: Yes, I'm pretty sure you're the only one. ;)
Save-scumming (or scumming in general) is an ancient technique in the world of computer games. I'm not sure how old the term is, but it goes back to the early 90s at least.
And FWIW I don't think Fallout forces the player to save scum.
Hey! Been a while. My comment was rooted in the criticals. They "forced" me to reload savegames. And then there was the time I died when leaving the crater. I'll admit I didn't know how radiation worked, but it still felt like a cheap death. I also didn't care much for the random bug swarms that'd kill me without possibility of escape - or survival - in a caravan mission. Save-scumming (or scumming in general) is an ancient technique in the world of computer games. I'm not sure how old the term is, but it goes back to the early 90s at least.
And FWIW I don't think Fallout forces the player to save scum.
Generally, it was also rooted in how older games tended to not inform you about things and this could lead to serious consequences: death, losing access to something, etc. This can be ok, but older games often rely on reloading savegames too much.
For example, a natural way to inform the player about a skill is to require it in a easy-ish mission. This way the player learns how to use it. This is a much better technique than throwing the player into a hard mission without knowing how to use it. With more complex games that have lots of skills and techniques, this isn't always practical, but it can work with the primary skills or techniques.
SO Fallout 1 could have familiarized the player with how radiation works BEFORE sending them off to the crater. There're any number of ideas they could have used to do this and it would have done a lot to reduce the frustrating deaths.
All in all, if the crits hadn't been so extreme and the largest bug swarms were clipped, Fallout 1 would be a lot better. This doesn't mean all deaths an be prevented, but it would help to reduce the more frustrating "forced" deaths.
I've enjoyed a lot of old games. Tehy're not all equally bad. Some are worse than others.
Post edited April 20, 2014 by jonbee77
Jonesy89
Angel of Review
Jonesy89 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2011
From United States
Posted April 20, 2014
UniversalWolf: Yes, I'm pretty sure you're the only one. ;)
Save-scumming (or scumming in general) is an ancient technique in the world of computer games. I'm not sure how old the term is, but it goes back to the early 90s at least.
And FWIW I don't think Fallout forces the player to save scum.
jonbee77: Hey! Been a while. My comment was rooted in the criticals. They "forced" me to reload savegames. And then there was the time I died when leaving the crater. I'll admit I didn't know how radiation worked, but it still felt like a cheap death. I also didn't care much for the random bug swarms that'd kill me without possibility of escape - or survival - in a caravan mission. Save-scumming (or scumming in general) is an ancient technique in the world of computer games. I'm not sure how old the term is, but it goes back to the early 90s at least.
And FWIW I don't think Fallout forces the player to save scum.
Generally, it was also rooted in how older games tended to not inform you about things and this could lead to serious consequences: death, losing access to something, etc. This can be ok, but older games often rely on reloading savegames too much.
For example, a natural way to inform the player about a skill is to require it in a easy-ish mission. This way the player learns how to use it. This is a much better technique than throwing the player into a hard mission without knowing how to use it. With more complex games that have lots of skills and techniques, this isn't always practical, but it can work with the primary skills or techniques.
SO Fallout 1 could have familiarized the player with how radiation works BEFORE sending them off to the crater. There're any number of ideas they could have used to do this and it would have done a lot to reduce the frustrating deaths.
All in all, if the crits hadn't been so extreme and the largest bug swarms were clipped, Fallout 1 would be a lot better. This doesn't mean all deaths an be prevented, but it would help to reduce the more frustrating "forced" deaths.
I've enjoyed a lot of old games. Tehy're not all equally bad. Some are worse than others.
As for radiation, the game *does* warn you that that the crater is radioactive in nature, and the people who tell you about it do suggest that you pick up medicine to counteract it. On top of that, the manual outlines how radiation works. I know that some of the more dense technical stuff is confusing (hell, the manual even suggests skipping reading on how the under the hood dice rolls work), but the part about radiation seems like something that warrants a brief skim.
Look, Fallout is a challenging game, I can't deny that; even with taking advantage of cover, there is always the possibility of tits getting upwardly inclined, but much of that can be minimized by taking precautions. Criticals admittedly are harder to deal with and require good armor and tactics to avoid getting nailed early on, but things like the caravan encounter and radiation are signposted by the game; the fact you are saying that the game doesn't warn the player makes me raise an eyebrow or two, in light of that.
jonbee77
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jonbee77 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Apr 2012
From United States
Posted April 21, 2014
I don't think we're going to agree. However, I do agree Fallout 1 is a decent game.
Fallout 2 is supposed to be a lot better. I haven't got around to playing it in-depth yet, but I do have it on the shelf.
I just got done playing Anachronox. Worth noting there was no time in Anachronox where I felt like the deaths were forced. I'm not saying this makes Anachronox a better game, but it definitely makes it more playable for someone like me.
Jagged Alliance 2 also has some rare encounters you CANNOT survive, yet that's one of my all-time favorite games. The vast majority of encounters can be survived, but you have to know exactly when to escape. It's a very technical game with less talking and more shooting.
Many games attempt to prevent frustrating deaths using cheap gimmicks and by essentially robbing the game of spontaneity. They're completely on rails and everything is controlled. I guess it's somewhat like Anachronox, but even Anachronox has some surprises and doesn't prepare you for everything. I don't agree with this. I made comments about this in my Eschalon Book I draft review. I think going all the way to prevent frustrating deaths is just as bad as not doing anything. It's overcontrolling.
Here's what I wrote about it (EB1):
"I failed to mention that there're fatal consequences in this game at certain points that're sometimes hard to see beforehand. Although I only experienced a couple of them, due to the fact I played conservatively and tried to be a well mannered person, these kinds of things definitely were present in classic RPGs and can be the source of a lot of frustration. It's not so much that these kinds of things are frequent in EB 1, but that they can be so maddening when you experience them. For example, in one case, I failed to see the outline of a trap and walked on it and BAM I died. Many traps in the game will kill you, not just hurt you. This probably isn't even the worst example since I could technically see the outline of the trap, even though it was difficult. Bare in mind that a game like this which doesn't try to hold your hand or put rails in the game so you don't fall off cliffs is bound to sting eventually. Even if they put up a sign "Trap here, don't walk on this tile." many players will walk on it anyway and when they do and meet their death they'll think all the pain wasn't worth it and quit the game. In my view, even a well designed area with enough cues to spot things will still kill people because people aren't perfect. This is not to say in any form whatsoever that making a well designed area is not a worthy goal just because it doesn't produce perfect results.
Overall, my judgment of the game took this into account. My overall feeling was the frustration was not large enough to keep me from playing. However, players have different tolerances and some will think things like this don't belong in games. My feeling is when a game is non-linear these kinds of things will crop up and especially if the bar is set higher. It's feasible that trap damage could have been reduced and escape-from-certain-death options could have been made more plentiful, but then I don't think this game would be the same anymore. My opinion is if a fatal problem happens to me in a game and it's completely unpredictable, it's generally undesirable, but then again, when I pickup a game that says it has no hand holding, I kind of expect to die sometimes. The end result is random deaths are not fun and designers should work to make things at least somewhat predictable or foreseeable, but eliminating them completely would probably rip out a huge chunk of the game and make designers too restrained and make the game feel too controlled (too linear). This is because to eliminate them means preventing players from missing predictable or foreseeable outcomes by essentially giving them a modal popup or putting up a hard barrier. No matter how predictable or foreseeable something is players will still sometimes miss it and die anyway, thus producing what to them feels like a random death. You can't prevent that without easing the consequences!
I think this has a lot to do with the nature of progression games. We play progression games to acquire things and build an adventure, but when we die and lose those things, our purpose is somewhat thwarted. But here's the thing: being able to fail adds value to our successes. Too much failure kills the desire to succeed, but some failure can make us value victory more and thus feel a greater connection to the game. I know that's how it's with me and I'm not sure about others, but I agree with the saying "No pain, no gain."
But there's the issue of immersion too, in my case. I generally do not like save scumming. Preferably, I'd somehow resurrect after death. Repeating an older save game makes it feel cheaper and more repetitive. Then again, resurrecting skirts death and if not done right, it also feels cheap. And sometimes I just like permadeath. I've played some single player games without reloading a savegame. It makes you more alert. However, sometimes games aren't made for that and essentially you will die at some point. Basically, and this is especially true for classic RPG's, they were made in an environment where save scumming was common. Nowadays, people play mmorpgs and when they die they resurrect, so this save scumming idea is strange to them. Maybe what we need is a new kind of single player game that doesn't play like an mmo and neither does it make us save scum.
All in all, as stated earlier, I only died 4 times in my playthrough. I was a first-time player. These issues were on my mind. But I'd also like to say that there were moments where I came close to death, but a potion or a heal solved the problem. For example, I fell into a salamander pit and popped invisibility and avoided reloading a saved game. It felt great. Then again, just today before I finished I got squashed by a gate trap. You win some and lose some, but at least I saw the gate trap and hesitated before deciding "What the hell..." I henceforth exploded into a shower of guts, but at least I saw it coming. Why did I go against my instincts?"
Fallout 2 is supposed to be a lot better. I haven't got around to playing it in-depth yet, but I do have it on the shelf.
I just got done playing Anachronox. Worth noting there was no time in Anachronox where I felt like the deaths were forced. I'm not saying this makes Anachronox a better game, but it definitely makes it more playable for someone like me.
Jagged Alliance 2 also has some rare encounters you CANNOT survive, yet that's one of my all-time favorite games. The vast majority of encounters can be survived, but you have to know exactly when to escape. It's a very technical game with less talking and more shooting.
Many games attempt to prevent frustrating deaths using cheap gimmicks and by essentially robbing the game of spontaneity. They're completely on rails and everything is controlled. I guess it's somewhat like Anachronox, but even Anachronox has some surprises and doesn't prepare you for everything. I don't agree with this. I made comments about this in my Eschalon Book I draft review. I think going all the way to prevent frustrating deaths is just as bad as not doing anything. It's overcontrolling.
Here's what I wrote about it (EB1):
"I failed to mention that there're fatal consequences in this game at certain points that're sometimes hard to see beforehand. Although I only experienced a couple of them, due to the fact I played conservatively and tried to be a well mannered person, these kinds of things definitely were present in classic RPGs and can be the source of a lot of frustration. It's not so much that these kinds of things are frequent in EB 1, but that they can be so maddening when you experience them. For example, in one case, I failed to see the outline of a trap and walked on it and BAM I died. Many traps in the game will kill you, not just hurt you. This probably isn't even the worst example since I could technically see the outline of the trap, even though it was difficult. Bare in mind that a game like this which doesn't try to hold your hand or put rails in the game so you don't fall off cliffs is bound to sting eventually. Even if they put up a sign "Trap here, don't walk on this tile." many players will walk on it anyway and when they do and meet their death they'll think all the pain wasn't worth it and quit the game. In my view, even a well designed area with enough cues to spot things will still kill people because people aren't perfect. This is not to say in any form whatsoever that making a well designed area is not a worthy goal just because it doesn't produce perfect results.
Overall, my judgment of the game took this into account. My overall feeling was the frustration was not large enough to keep me from playing. However, players have different tolerances and some will think things like this don't belong in games. My feeling is when a game is non-linear these kinds of things will crop up and especially if the bar is set higher. It's feasible that trap damage could have been reduced and escape-from-certain-death options could have been made more plentiful, but then I don't think this game would be the same anymore. My opinion is if a fatal problem happens to me in a game and it's completely unpredictable, it's generally undesirable, but then again, when I pickup a game that says it has no hand holding, I kind of expect to die sometimes. The end result is random deaths are not fun and designers should work to make things at least somewhat predictable or foreseeable, but eliminating them completely would probably rip out a huge chunk of the game and make designers too restrained and make the game feel too controlled (too linear). This is because to eliminate them means preventing players from missing predictable or foreseeable outcomes by essentially giving them a modal popup or putting up a hard barrier. No matter how predictable or foreseeable something is players will still sometimes miss it and die anyway, thus producing what to them feels like a random death. You can't prevent that without easing the consequences!
I think this has a lot to do with the nature of progression games. We play progression games to acquire things and build an adventure, but when we die and lose those things, our purpose is somewhat thwarted. But here's the thing: being able to fail adds value to our successes. Too much failure kills the desire to succeed, but some failure can make us value victory more and thus feel a greater connection to the game. I know that's how it's with me and I'm not sure about others, but I agree with the saying "No pain, no gain."
But there's the issue of immersion too, in my case. I generally do not like save scumming. Preferably, I'd somehow resurrect after death. Repeating an older save game makes it feel cheaper and more repetitive. Then again, resurrecting skirts death and if not done right, it also feels cheap. And sometimes I just like permadeath. I've played some single player games without reloading a savegame. It makes you more alert. However, sometimes games aren't made for that and essentially you will die at some point. Basically, and this is especially true for classic RPG's, they were made in an environment where save scumming was common. Nowadays, people play mmorpgs and when they die they resurrect, so this save scumming idea is strange to them. Maybe what we need is a new kind of single player game that doesn't play like an mmo and neither does it make us save scum.
All in all, as stated earlier, I only died 4 times in my playthrough. I was a first-time player. These issues were on my mind. But I'd also like to say that there were moments where I came close to death, but a potion or a heal solved the problem. For example, I fell into a salamander pit and popped invisibility and avoided reloading a saved game. It felt great. Then again, just today before I finished I got squashed by a gate trap. You win some and lose some, but at least I saw the gate trap and hesitated before deciding "What the hell..." I henceforth exploded into a shower of guts, but at least I saw it coming. Why did I go against my instincts?"
Post edited April 21, 2014 by jonbee77
UniversalWolf
Quasi-Teetotaler
UniversalWolf Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2011
From United States
Posted April 21, 2014
I like Anachronox, but it's a completely different kind of game from Fallout. Fallout is a simulation of a pen-and-paper RPG.
There are lots of places you can die in Fallout because the wasteland exists as is, and if you're not prepared for it you're going to get whacked. That's not a flaw in the design.
There are lots of places you can die in Fallout because the wasteland exists as is, and if you're not prepared for it you're going to get whacked. That's not a flaw in the design.
Jonesy89
Angel of Review
Jonesy89 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Oct 2011
From United States
UniversalWolf
Quasi-Teetotaler
UniversalWolf Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2011
From United States