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ArbitraryWater: (Lockpick is avoidable unless you want to join the thieves guild, since you can bash down doors with your fists to avoid damaging your weapons)
Actually, the situation is worse than that. If you raise your Lockpick skill, you will start encountering magically locked doors in dungeons, which can't be opened with the Lockpick skill. In other words. raising this skill makes you worse at lock picking in dungeons, which is a horrible case of a level scaling-like mechanic. With high Lockpick, bashing doors is sometimes no longer an option, and lock picking isn't either in these cases, making the Open spell effect mandatory (when it isn't at lower levels).
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dtgreene: Actually, the situation is worse than that. If you raise your Lockpick skill, you will start encountering magically locked doors in dungeons, which can't be opened with the Lockpick skill. In other words. raising this skill makes you worse at lock picking in dungeons, which is a horrible case of a level scaling-like mechanic. With high Lockpick, bashing doors is sometimes no longer an option, and lock picking isn't either in these cases, making the Open spell effect mandatory (when it isn't at lower levels).
Well, that's brilliant. I didn't even realize this, but, thinking back, it makes sense. (Daggerfall sense.)
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dtgreene: Actually, the situation is worse than that. If you raise your Lockpick skill, you will start encountering magically locked doors in dungeons, which can't be opened with the Lockpick skill. In other words. raising this skill makes you worse at lock picking in dungeons, which is a horrible case of a level scaling-like mechanic. With high Lockpick, bashing doors is sometimes no longer an option, and lock picking isn't either in these cases, making the Open spell effect mandatory (when it isn't at lower levels).
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HunchBluntley: Well, that's brilliant. I didn't even realize this, but, thinking back, it makes sense. (Daggerfall sense.)
New for me, too - interesting observation! I tend to bash doors open, if I think I have to, and to get OPEN as quickly as possible, and don't bother with lockpicking at all (in Daggerfall) - that's probably why I never noticed this design flaw.
Post edited September 01, 2015 by Greywolf1
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Greywolf1: ArbitraryWater: No offense intended - and I definitely did not intend to be condescending. I simply picked up your own words.
And thanks for the clarification. I really have difficulties with statements like "half of Daggerfall is broken", and asked because I wanted to understand your point of view - which I do now.
I apologize if I sounded a bit testy in my reply. I wrote it late last night.
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Sarisio: Randomly generated quests (are they? amount of towns is gigantic, maybe they are also procedurally generated instead of random?) are different things from randomly generated dungeons.
Of course they are something different.
However, I am pretty sure that a lot of people who dislike procedurally generated dungeons randomly chosen dungeons might not be acceptable either.

If you don't like dungeons that are procedurally generated while you play, chances are that you are not going to like being sent to a random dungeon that was procedurally generated during the game's development every time you do a quest.
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0Grapher: If you don't like dungeons that are procedurally generated while you play, chances are that you are not going to like being sent to a random dungeon that was procedurally generated during the game's development every time you do a quest.
Again :) Dungeons aren't procedurally generated "while" you play. They are pre-generated and set in stone.

Random dungeons -> Diablo, Dungeon Hack, Torchlight, etc.

I am strict on this point, because I kept getting turned away from Daggerfall because people said it has random-generated dungeons... Which is totally wrong and misleading.

You speak about randomly generated quests (if they are truly random instead of procedurally pre-generated), not dungeons.

It made me wonder - are Daggerfall quests truly random or are they procedurally pre-generated too and same for each character?
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Sarisio: Again :) Dungeons aren't procedurally generated "while" you play. They are pre-generated and set in stone.
Do you even read my posts? :)
So, again:
" If you don't like dungeons that are procedurally generated while you play, chances are that you are not going to like being sent to a random dungeon that was procedurally generated during the game's development every time you do a quest."

I said, yes, I know that they aren't generated while you play but that doesn't even matter.
If it does for you, then fine, but I wasn't talking specifically about you.

I have never claimed that Daggerfall had dungeons that are procedurally generated while you play
You could call what I am talking about "procedurally generated quests" but what I am talking about is a very specific aspect of the quests that has more to do with the procedurally generated dungeons than with the quests themselves - In other words calling that procedurally generated quests is misleading in its own right and not useful.

Why do I claim that this aspect of "procedurally generated quests" is very similar to procedurally generated dungeons?
-Because both are very similar (Duh!):
Almost all dungeons are a sort of maze that could be just as well be procedurally generated while playing.
The dungeons are similar enough to seem like they have been procedurally generated.
Most of the time, you are going to be sent to a random one of countless dungeons.

Pretty much the only differences between Daggerfall's random selection of procedurally generated dungeons and procedural generation while playing are:
If you know that the dungeons were pre-generated, you may feel different about that.
Before entering the dungeon you are going travel a (pretty much random) point on the map that is always different.
The dungeons have specific names.
Some quests do send you to a specific dungeon every time, I think.

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Sarisio: It made me wonder - are Daggerfall quests truly random or are they procedurally pre-generated too and same for each character?
For the most part, they are not the same for each character and if you reload your game you probably get a different one as well.
However, some important quests and dungeons are the same I think and even memorable.
Post edited September 02, 2015 by 0Grapher
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Sarisio: It made me wonder - are Daggerfall quests truly random or are they procedurally pre-generated too and same for each character?
The way quests (excluding the main quest) are generated is as follows:

1. The game chooses a random template from a list, the list dependent on where you get the quests (Mage's Guild has one set of quests, Fighter's Guild a different one, etc.) and sometimes other factors, like your reputation.

2. A few details are filled in randomly. This includes the town or dungeon in which the quests take place. Character names are chosen from a list. Note that random quests will never, as far as I know, require leaving the current province.

3. The game then presents you with the generated quest. If you say "No", you will get a different quest the next time you ask for one. Therefore, you can keep re-rolling quests until you get one you like.
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dtgreene: The way quests (excluding the main quest) are generated is as follows:

1. The game chooses a random template from a list, the list dependent on where you get the quests (Mage's Guild has one set of quests, Fighter's Guild a different one, etc.) and sometimes other factors, like your reputation.

2. A few details are filled in randomly. This includes the town or dungeon in which the quests take place. Character names are chosen from a list. Note that random quests will never, as far as I know, require leaving the current province.

3. The game then presents you with the generated quest. If you say "No", you will get a different quest the next time you ask for one. Therefore, you can keep re-rolling quests until you get one you like.
Aha I see, and those quests are also repeatable?
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Sarisio: Aha I see, and those quests are also repeatable?
"These" quests aren't. (The same dungeon, the same NPC)
But you are going to get the same sort of quest all the time.
Post edited September 02, 2015 by 0Grapher
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0Grapher: "These" quests aren't. (The same dungeon, the same NPC)
But you are going to get the same sort of quest all the time.
By that I mean, you take the quest, complete it and can take another similar one from same NPC? Or one questgiver = 1 quest/questline and no more?
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0Grapher: "These" quests aren't. (The same dungeon, the same NPC)
But you are going to get the same sort of quest all the time.
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Sarisio: By that I mean, you take the quest, complete it and can take another similar one from same NPC? Or one questgiver = 1 quest/questline and no more?
Yes, you can get similar quests again. You got medicine from one mummy in one dungeon, now get medicine from a different mummy in a different dungeon.

If you try reaching a high rank in the Mage's Guild (a good idea since you get access to the Item Maker and teleportation), you will see what I mean.
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Sarisio: By that I mean, you take the quest, complete it and can take another similar one from same NPC? Or one questgiver = 1 quest/questline and no more?
If you are in a guild for example, you always go to the same person if you want a quest.
You are going to get a name from the "true" quest giver but are probably never going to see him.

The people you talk to in order to initiate a quest normally have more than one quest, I think.
Post edited September 02, 2015 by 0Grapher