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Eador seriesGenesis vs MOBW(38 posts)(38 posts)
(38 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 20, 2013
Man Gremlion, you are bitter! :D

This is in response to Taltamir:
I still think the Genesis campaign is fine.After having played 2 of them, one failed after 28, and one won after 48 shards, I would say its a bit too short. I could have gone on long past shard 48. Dont care much about plots, I like the astral energy, the bonus items you can buy for astral energy and the unlock system.
Ironman mode is not true because turn back time is basically autosave, score doesnt matter. If you really want to save past that, you can manually by copying the save file.

The only reason for me to buy the new one would be the new features and new random events. But what really detracts me is the shorter campaign, the longer turn times and the slower animations.
Posted April 20, 2013
I haven't played oodles of MoBTW or Genesis. I haven't finished the campaign in either game, but I have been playing the snot out of single player maps (I wanted all the buildings!).

Maybe I'm an outlier in that I actually prefer Genesis visually over MotBW. Sure they are sprites, but everything is bright, crisp and easy to distinguish and recognize. There have been a few times I can't tell a hill from a plains square in MotBW and there is a certain uniformity of color in the new games palette that I'm having issues with (the flashing lighting in battles doesn't help). Everything seems greyish or brownish, even when it's green.

I prefer the Stronghold building UI in Genesis even over the advanced version in MotBW, but maybe only slightly. The Advanced UI is nice in that you can see all the buildings up front and plan ahead a bit better. It is unfortunately balanced out by being a visual assault of little icons. Maybe a coinflip on which I'd prefer in the end.

I feel like MotBW would be rating better in my eyes if it didn't just seem a bit sluggish. The battles are slower than Genesis, even with the speed turned up. And the Hero radial UI in the new one wouldn't be so bad if it didn't seem to have to pause before showing up.

I don't have an slouch of machine either, I just picked it up yesterday! 12G RAM, i7 processor. A game of Genesis takes a long time, I can only imagine how long it will take with all the pauses and slowness in MotBW.

I think on the whole I'll probably be sticking with Genesis. I'm not seeing yet what MotBW adds that should make it worth playing over Genesis. I'll keep firing up MotBW on occasion just to keep seeing if it grows on me, so maybe my opinion will change (especially if fixes are released for other issues).
Posted April 20, 2013
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jamotide: Man Gremlion, you are bitter! :D

This is in response to Taltamir:
I still think the Genesis campaign is fine.After having played 2 of them, one failed after 28, and one won after 48 shards, I would say its a bit too short. I could have gone on long past shard 48. Dont care much about plots, I like the astral energy, the bonus items you can buy for astral energy and the unlock system.
Ironman mode is not true because turn back time is basically autosave, score doesnt matter. If you really want to save past that, you can manually by copying the save file.

The only reason for me to buy the new one would be the new features and new random events. But what really detracts me is the shorter campaign, the longer turn times and the slower animations.
Turnback time can only be used while conquering a shard (to reply one turn ago) and cannot be used if you are defeated.
So, if an enemy attacks your world and your castle is taken thats it, game over and your save is deleted.
Posted April 20, 2013
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taltamir: The campaign has actually been made significantly faster to play through.
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Gremlion: Yeah, you complete tutorial shard and you get all Keys of Truth. Game over, you won.
Somehow your negative bias gets on my nerves. Whatever someone writes you have to cynical comment it. You don't like the game? Fine, just play something else or give usefull negative feedback to help improving the game. Your pointless bashing gets really tiresome. Some like the game, others don't thats how things work, but most of them doesn't add random bashing to kill every constructive discussion.
Posted April 20, 2013
Bugs: advantage genesis
Performance: advantage genesis
Price: advantage genesis

Genesis wins on every aspect besides graphics. And even those are bugged as hell and have poor performance...
Posted April 20, 2013
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Seirhune: Maybe I'm an outlier in that I actually prefer Genesis visually over MotBW. Sure they are sprites, but everything is bright, crisp and easy to distinguish and recognize. There have been a few times I can't tell a hill from a plains square in MotBW and there is a certain uniformity of color in the new games palette that I'm having issues with (the flashing lighting in battles doesn't help). Everything seems greyish or brownish, even when it's green.
No, you have company, I also often prefer 2D gfx to 3D. :)
In some games 3D helps as you can get a better overview by panning the camera an so on, but Eador isn't such a game where 3D would give you a benefit in usability or overview.
However, the gfx of MotBW is nice on a quick glance, at least to me, but i also agree to some of your perceptions: the color tones are somehow greyish or brownish so far. The battlefield tiles are also not quite ideal from a practical point of view, it is indeed hard to actually see a ground type with a quick glance.
Maybe it would be an option if the devs would later patch some kind of overlay icons into the game. I mean an option to get some kind of icon while hovering over a tile to tell what kind of tile it is. The right click way slows the game flow somehow.

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Seirhune: I feel like MotBW would be rating better in my eyes if it didn't just seem a bit sluggish. The battles are slower than Genesis, even with the speed turned up. And the Hero radial UI in the new one wouldn't be so bad if it didn't seem to have to pause before showing up.
As my computer is pretty fast I didn't had experienced such behavior, but it sounds like there is some optimizing needed for older computers. Had you tried lowering the gfx settings? I guess it is tied to the rendering.

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Seirhune: I don't have an slouch of machine either, I just picked it up yesterday! 12G RAM, i7 processor. A game of Genesis takes a long time, I can only imagine how long it will take with all the pauses and slowness in MotBW.
Weird. I have also an i7 3550k on a Z77 with 8GB very fast RAM and a GF680 GTX. I guess our gfx cards differ performance wise.

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Seirhune: I think on the whole I'll probably be sticking with Genesis. I'm not seeing yet what MotBW adds that should make it worth playing over Genesis. I'll keep firing up MotBW on occasion just to keep seeing if it grows on me, so maybe my opinion will change (especially if fixes are released for other issues).
I'm biased a bit towards MotBW, but this might be the case because it's a shiny new toy while I played Genesis for a long while.

But as a 2D and strategy lover I'd like to give you some kind of a hint if you don't already know:
There is a remake of Heroes of Might & Magic 3 under development and it's slowly nearing towards a playable state:

http://forum.vcmi.eu/portal.php

It's 2D, it's one of the greatest games of all time (at least to me ^^) and it comes back with new features, fully mod'able and with a huge community. :)
Posted April 20, 2013
i had a thought.. this game should be perfect with pseudo 3d... i mean really all i do today is watch stream, photos of motbw and all the time its hard to recognize the mobs.. in other words - mobs doesnt have recognizable features in 3d.

They are very distinctive and recognizable in 2d even at first glance! And if you look for a longer time you can clearly see the details in mob! You cant do that in 3d! (hence eador:genesis is perfect in this perspective)
Posted April 20, 2013
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Gremlion: Yeah, you complete tutorial shard and you get all Keys of Truth. Game over, you won.
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wintermute.: Somehow your negative bias gets on my nerves. Whatever someone writes you have to cynical comment it. You don't like the game? Fine, just play something else or give usefull negative feedback to help improving the game. Your pointless bashing gets really tiresome. Some like the game, others don't thats how things work, but most of them doesn't add random bashing to kill every constructive discussion.
I'm so sad, someone don't like me Baaaaw.
Thing is, I am joking around only because I want to cry. And not because someone don't like me.
I spent hella lot of time on this forum, answered tons of questions, translated manuals(I'm slightly surprised that there are no mods for Genesis yet, adding dragon in tavern and dragon egg in drop were, probably, most requested ones on russian forum and easily implemented, dragon in tavern would need around 5 sec of work), wrote guides, strategies and tactics, got as thanks as critique of my poor English (sigh, and I can't read my own 2 year old posts without shudder) and all that was because I love Genesis.
I don't like to lie, if you ask me about bugs in Genesis - I would answer - yes, there are bugs in Genesis.
Like
1.Opponent which lost initiative would regain stamina/get ammo from meditation if you use sabotage/fatigue/burn ammo before his first turn.
2.Unit, rooted by dryad/ent can move if it would deal killing blow/suicide(annoying against fliers like manticore)
3.Round attack ability, summoned unit, soul steal and mind control spell could result in game crush in different combinations.
4.Hydra's ability "attack all enemies" can cause crush. Maybe it is normal on hydra, but this ability caused a lot of crushes in mods.
5. Some events which increase income in province could give something like +40 gold/turn(I had province with +300 gold/turn once), while intended max for event around +12

But, back to topic.
What I think about Motbw - after bugfixes (though it would need a lot of time and work) it would have improved gameplay from genesis.
UI I can't stand in current form, but even UI of Genesis was updated a lot through 1.0-1.3 versions (like hotkeys)
3D which I don't like. It adds nothing and exists only because it hardly tries to look pretty. A bit excessive on sparkling side and little too mottled for me.

As for additional content in motbw - mostly it can be ported into Genesis by modding.
You even can get all these new shard modifiers, if before generation of new shard you would make small modifications to var files.
a) World of rust - item.var, where items have decreased durability
b) world of magic - modified site.var, defender.var and guard.var to decrease gold and increase crystals from drop and trophies(not complete list, events, quests would need some attention too)
c)world of death - increased weight for "land of the dead" province type, easiest to implement.
New sites - add image from motbw into genesis and compose similar defender.
Adding new unit isn't that hard either.

So, for me there is still only one point to buy motbw - for currently unfinished multiplayer.

Snowbirds eventually would fix bugs, and because of this I don't run with torch and pitchfork and just having fun about things like "my spearman got medal of healer".
Posted April 20, 2013
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wintermute.: Somehow your negative bias gets on my nerves. Whatever someone writes you have to cynical comment it. You don't like the game? Fine, just play something else or give usefull negative feedback to help improving the game. Your pointless bashing gets really tiresome. Some like the game, others don't thats how things work, but most of them doesn't add random bashing to kill every constructive discussion.
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Gremlion: I'm so sad, someone don't like me Baaaaw.
Thing is, I am joking around only because I want to cry. And not because someone don't like me.
I spent hella lot of time on this forum, answered tons of questions, translated manuals(I'm slightly surprised that there are no mods for Genesis yet, adding dragon in tavern and dragon egg in drop were, probably, most requested ones on russian forum and easily implemented, dragon in tavern would need around 5 sec of work), wrote guides, strategies and tactics, got as thanks as critique of my poor English (sigh, and I can't read my own 2 year old posts without shudder) and all that was because I love Genesis.
I don't like to lie, if you ask me about bugs in Genesis - I would answer - yes, there are bugs in Genesis.
Like
1.Opponent which lost initiative would regain stamina/get ammo from meditation if you use sabotage/fatigue/burn ammo before his first turn.
2.Unit, rooted by dryad/ent can move if it would deal killing blow/suicide(annoying against fliers like manticore)
3.Round attack ability, summoned unit, soul steal and mind control spell could result in game crush in different combinations.
4.Hydra's ability "attack all enemies" can cause crush. Maybe it is normal on hydra, but this ability caused a lot of crushes in mods.
5. Some events which increase income in province could give something like +40 gold/turn(I had province with +300 gold/turn once), while intended max for event around +12

But, back to topic.
What I think about Motbw - after bugfixes (though it would need a lot of time and work) it would have improved gameplay from genesis.
UI I can't stand in current form, but even UI of Genesis was updated a lot through 1.0-1.3 versions (like hotkeys)
3D which I don't like. It adds nothing and exists only because it hardly tries to look pretty. A bit excessive on sparkling side and little too mottled for me.

As for additional content in motbw - mostly it can be ported into Genesis by modding.
You even can get all these new shard modifiers, if before generation of new shard you would make small modifications to var files.
a) World of rust - item.var, where items have decreased durability
b) world of magic - modified site.var, defender.var and guard.var to decrease gold and increase crystals from drop and trophies(not complete list, events, quests would need some attention too)
c)world of death - increased weight for "land of the dead" province type, easiest to implement.
New sites - add image from motbw into genesis and compose similar defender.
Adding new unit isn't that hard either.

So, for me there is still only one point to buy motbw - for currently unfinished multiplayer.

Snowbirds eventually would fix bugs, and because of this I don't run with torch and pitchfork and just having fun about things like "my spearman got medal of healer".
THIS is a critic that let you look good: facts and clear opinions. :)
Sadly I can't read/understand Russian and translators .. well ... you know how the results are. ^^ So I can't say anything about the Russian forum and I didn't participate in the beta. I don't doubt it would be possible to get Genesis refreshed in a manner so it represents some or, with some more work in the programcode itself, even all new features of MotBS. However, the engine of Genesis is kind of "broken" as it is very sensitive of the speed of your computer, so you likely have to rewrite a good portion of the old engine and MotBS solves the problems Genesis had. You are absolutely right: there is no reason for this game to switch to 3D but the representation and sales numbers, but this decision is made and it's somehow ok for me. Snowbird must make a living and I guess a 3D game sells better than a 2D one or so they think (I for myself think the mobile phones had changed the mind of many people on the 3D hype). Multiplayer is indeed the thing where snowbird absolutely failed, but I think we could give them the chance to bring it in a while without bashing them. I for myself would bury myself deep in some books if I would read things that were written in the forums and I would loose any morale to fix the things. I think the feedback and the critics are needed, but in a friendly manner: telling what is broken or bad while also telling whats good and that we wait for a fix. They didn't made bugs on purpose and they for sure didn't want to upset us, so no need to bash them every second post. :)
The UI is another thing thats a quite personal view. I'm fine with the UI, it's not fully optimized or thought out in regards of handling, but it's usable and does it's job for myself. I would like to see some progress there but it's not an "A" priority imho. Things that need to be addressed are the access violations some people are experiencing. Someone found a workaround by adding MotBS to the DEP exception list, but it's nothing more than a workaround and doesn't solve the root problem (which likely will make problems earlier or later even with DEP deactivated as it is clearly a problem with the memory management (alloc/free and the whole magic around that)). Multiplayer is already an priority for them, I'm sure. ^^ Another quite high priority would be the redesign of the UI for people with a 1366x768 resolution which is quite standard for many laptops.
Posted April 20, 2013
MOBW needs some work but I hope it gets there. For me the reasons I preordered were to support a game genre that is a bit of minority interest and publishers (GOG) who are DRM free. For game itself it was compatibility with modern operating systems (when my XP box eventually gives up) and saves.

The saves were probably the main reason as it discouraged (for me) experimentation and new tactics. It also meant that I could ignore or even out bad luck and random events.

As I posted elsewhere I'm not convinced about the user interface but then i've done enough software rollouts in my job to know that people don't like change regardless of the benefits but eventually get use to it on most occasions.

The graphics I don't find as effective as Genesis but then I didn't like Civilization IV initially and now its one of mt must plays.

A proper manual would have been nice though as again one of the main complaints about Genesis was the lack of information and the current manual tells me how to play the game but doesn't provide any information about the armies, buildings, spells etc.
Posted April 21, 2013
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Standup: A proper manual would have been nice though as again one of the main complaints about Genesis was the lack of information and the current manual tells me how to play the game but doesn't provide any information about the armies, buildings, spells etc.
This is something I loved MoO2 for: the inbuilt informations given by right clicking on screen items. That was something very uncommon back in the 90s and it was implemented way to few times after that by other games. MotBS makes use of this (aswell as genesis did), but it could have been a bit more extended. Snowbird could have learned from the most common questions Genesis player had to find a way to implement the information in the user interface. Even if they would had needed another qualifier (like shift-click or ctrl-click or maybe shift-right-click or something like this) it would had helped a lot and would be appreciated.
Posted April 21, 2013
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taltamir: Also, while the new engine added some bugs, it is far more playable than genesis which required you to downclock your CPU to even play
That's strange, I'm running a 6-core 3Ghz and I don't need to downclock it. What processor were you having trouble with?
Posted April 21, 2013
I can see some advantages in the new game
I may dislike the new constriction UI but I think once used to it will be more user friendly

ok so the manual is a joke
being able to save is nice
Posted April 21, 2013
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Standup: A proper manual would have been nice though as again one of the main complaints about Genesis was the lack of information and the current manual tells me how to play the game but doesn't provide any information about the armies, buildings, spells etc.
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wintermute.: This is something I loved MoO2 for: the inbuilt informations given by right clicking on screen items.
You can right click lots of stuff in Genesis and it offers lengthy explanations of things and game mechanics.
Posted April 21, 2013
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Gremlion: Yeah, you complete tutorial shard and you get all Keys of Truth. Game over, you won.
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wintermute.: Somehow your negative bias gets on my nerves. Whatever someone writes you have to cynical comment it. You don't like the game? Fine, just play something else or give usefull negative feedback to help improving the game. Your pointless bashing gets really tiresome. Some like the game, others don't thats how things work, but most of them doesn't add random bashing to kill every constructive discussion.
Its not bias, MOTB campaign is literally unplayable.
You complete the tutorial shard and immediately get the 7 keys of truth just like he said.
Furthermore, those who have tried conquering shards despite this horrible bug (which completely ruins the campaign) have stated that you don't get an increase to shard count (which means you can't advance plot).

For those who don't know, getting the 7 keys of truth is one of the win scenario
Post edited April 21, 2013 by taltamir
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This is my favourite topic
Community
Eador seriesGenesis vs MOBW(38 posts)(38 posts)
(38 posts)