Hi all,

Single-player centric person here, I love playing quality story-driven campaigns in strategy games.

I know a lot about RTS games, and less about TBS games.

I previously played through HoMM2 and its expansion - the campaigns were good, no more no less.

I am intrigued about Disciples II for its darker fantasy, and wonder whether HoMM3 would really provide a better campaign experience than HoMM2.

Would those in the know be able to argue in favour of Disciples II for the campaign experience?
And if so, could you provide a rough (spoiler-free) breakdown of the quality of the campaigns in Dark Prophecy vs the expansions?

Thanks!

In general. In old times publishers spent a lot of money and human resources to each game. Even 3DO conveyer. Each Heroes Chronicles (separate game but part of H3 canon story) have a lot of maps-missions and dialogues there. Current mobile-startegy-games (like Dis4\H6-7) and especially shooters far apart from old level desginers, plot writers... And obviously same for coders, cause current games - just took DirectX, as engine Unity3D or Unreal and their presets - at least enough for shooter (and some stupid plot for lgbt propaganda), or make shooter and call that platformer.

So what that mean? Im a fan of Discipels 2 although i start with H3. I think it more deep to the story, while H3 more about on-map content, collecting resources and artefacts. And yet, Heroes 2, Heroes3, Heroes Chronicles, and Heroes 4 have a lot of dialogues and events during missions, and a lot of maps with that. Chronicles which ones technically low-budget is still worth played.

I enjoy Dis2 for tactics and RPG aspects, for Discipels 2 battles. Tactics start from very firts click on the Capital. Heores 4 (and then 5) later also use alternative grades for units. But not like Dis2. 9999 units (and some 1-unit stacks) put in corner around archers is not so deep tactic. A lot of digits for characterists is not deep - it is like in modern mobile games. Heroes overpowered and games ended on 1-1-7 for who jsut upgrade magic power more... It is not what tactic should be.
So Dis2 pros is jRPG battle style. More like wargames battles.
And visual (unlike jRPG).

As for story... Well... First, Might n Magic is huge universe. Space universe too. Enroth is just one planet. Heroes 1-3 is just part of spin-off to some MnM games. And i think it is too much for the plot. At other hand, you can skip all that and play only Heroes3+Chronicles. They follow Heroes2. Maybe you need play that, maybe not...
Probably too much campaigns for all Heroes3 episodes\Chronicles ep. But Discipels 2 GR take more time to complete anyway.
Im personally cant compare D2 and H3 plot. I probably vote for Dis2, but not sure how that fair.

Warlord series is too empty maps, too "empty" plot (+RTS spin-off a bit better). Discipels 2 is a good average. Maps contain what they should - exactly everything what Heores maps have. Just in minimum. And plot full enough to take your interest but not overwhelmed by many spin-off games episodes\campaigns\characters like MnM.

Disciples 1 is worse at it.

There is Disciples 1 spin-off (and DLC-like) Devine Empire campaign. As not-related prequel. Main Sacred Lands story. Play both campaigns at same time for every faction. Their missions like for Command n Conquers or Warcraft are cross each other, sometimes mirrored. To play Discipels 2 you dont need Discipels 1. Just look for Disciples 1 one intro, 4 outro, and read pot sections of Disciples 1 and 2 manuals. Then got to Disciples 2 Gallean's Return and look 2 intros that finally explain how Dis1 ended canonically. Some detailes you miss (what happened to Queen), but nothing important.

Same for Disciples 2 base campaign. One faction start a bit early, maybe second mission too, then going to mission 1 for another faction, third, fourth faction, then return to first faction and look where it continue. One faction end continues in start of another faction mission. You can miss some detailes if you play mission 1->7, 1->7, 1->7 and last faction 1->7 (someone allied with Undeads as Undeads almost told to Empire in Empire campaign, but that affect Legions campaign when that someone did disappear for some time left another one character in charge).
Then when you finish for all - go to Gallean's Return campaign. it is 3 mission x4 factions. Since it is only 3 per faction, they even more close to what happened in other faction mission before.

Disciples 2 Rise of the Elves is stand-alone game. That mean absolutely not-related separate series instalment. just based on old engine when new title on new engine in dev. This time it is contain D2 base campaign, but miss any additions of the GR. It is still two differ games. For first i suggest play how it supposed to be - GR in GR, and only Elves in RotE.

RotE plot not so good as previous games. There is second campaign not directly related (prequel probably between GR and ROTE) - not present in GOG version, GOG version also patch outdated. it is even worse designed. neutrals fight each others even of they belong to same sub-faction (cause of wrong Guard radios set to them).

But D2 main all missions and all skirmish scenario maps are good desinged, and GR exapnsion been just addons is better than RotE. New GR skirmish maps also well designed and interested.

Thank you for the detailed reply, QWEEDDYZ!

Based on this review of the situation, my decision is made: I am going to play Disciples 2 and its expansions.

I did realise how massive the Might & Magic fictional universe is, and agree it can be a bit overwhelming (particularly as the lore gets spread across very different games from different eras).

It's a shame if the Rise of the Elves stand-alone game features an inferior narrative to that of the earlier Disciples 2 campaigns, but at least we get to play as an entirely new faction...

Did you ask same on Heroes sub-forum? (as i can see you not) Probably there someone can answer more. Also on Steam forums.
I can say for sure Disciples 1 is not so good as Heroes 2-3. Just few Day# script messages and when take some of the cities. Not enough. At least, main story campaign is 4x4 missions. Short enough. Heroes are better.
It released in '99 and been outdated already at release. In gameplay mechanincs, map-scripting and GFX. Discipels 2 in-dev alpha looks like a game should be released in '99 first.

Disciples 2 differ, better. Im as a Dis fan say it is equal to Heroes. But im interesting myself what Heroes fan will say. Discipels 2 maps are tinier, everything on the map, all gameplay... whole game is more about RPG elements and plot. Heroes for map lurking, larger maps. More events too. And in campaign it really not only lurking for resources to buy 999 armies - there is a lot of events and dialogues. I cant say for sure Disciples 2 are better for plot.

By the way. Disciples 2 released in early '02. Half-year before Warcraft 3. Expansions and GR version released during '03, and then RotE in late '03.

Anyway. It really worth the try. Start from Tutorial. RPG fan will find joy in this game. One-morn-turn effect, yay! effect when units upgraded. Even if we agree plot in heroes are better, it is more focused on your heroes and looks more addictive.

Disciples 2 have strange changes. Dis1 V.Hard take all resources on first Day and bring some minimum of gold and own mana (200+75 maybe). Dis2 mutiplayer mode\hotseat work same. But for singleplayer mode player will start with 0 resources on V.hard. You get only Day1 income.

Also, in version 2.0 and above (addons\GR) devs add UnFOG script and broke FOG script in main campaigns. When camera move - look carefully where it point to and remember what dialogues message told you. it is about side-quests target. it is no more revealed for player.

GOG versions same as Steam miss something. Steam is better, but have wrong exe's (and unpatched). GOG version miss main menu file where 2.01 showed instead of 2.02 (all else string of the file are OK).
GOG miss DLC content for RotE and entire 3.01 update except exe files. Thats probably because they used 4 CD Gold from 2005, which one still require manually install updates.
Same 4CD have original 19 maps only on RotE CDs, and not on Discipels 2 itself. here the list
http://netd.sklabs.ru/Scenarios/D2Scenarios.html
or http://nevendaar.com/index/0-43

GOG also initially miss 12 pre-made heroes saved. Last update from 2019 bring them back. But they miss them for GOG Galaxy english version. Impire.sg map are still missing as well, in GOG offline version too.

Awesome thank you very much for the extra info!

I will follow your advice with respect to 1) getting up to speed with the lore from Disciples 1, and 2) for the main (original Disciples 2) campaigns, remembering where the camera moves to and associated messages for side-quests (because of the broken FOG script).

Thanks for the maps list also!
I always use the offline version of my GOG games. Since you said the missing DLC campaign for RotE is the worst Disciples 2 related campaign, I don't think I'll miss it!
I will of course start with the tutorial.

Oh yes, and based on a review I read somewhere that said the AI was poor below the Hard difficulty setting, I think I will play the Disciples 2 games on Hard (not Very Hard!). For reference, I played HoMM2 on the Normal difficulty setting and eventually beat the Roland campaign and Price of Loyalty campaign.

I like the focus on the RPG side of things, yes.

The fact that Disciples 2: Dark Prophecy released before Warcraft 3 was probably a good thing from a marketing point of view. It must have been one of the last 2D strategy games to not be considered 'dated' visually.

EDIT: I will post on the Heroes sub-forum, good idea, just to glean some more opinions contrasting the two series.

Advise for campaign. Try get both possible of +2 (per each mission) leader level-ups and perks. better try to get maximum 16th level before end last 7th mission (before ending fight). You get new perk up to 14 lvl (13 in general, twice for leadership, so 11 for real perks)
(plant rod heroes require 4 for leadership)
Unlike Disciples 1, you are not so limited. 11 is enough. Check complete perk list in the manual. Keep in mind, Plant Rod perk is only for planting rod heroes, staff and scrolls if only for mage leaders - you cant get it for else (staff-scrolls can be added in MapEditor).

Gameplay mechanincs advise if you need that:
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Keep in mind, maximum dmg is 300 or 400 for some leaders. You cant achieve 100% accuracy in Disciples games (80+20 =/= 100%, misses still possible especially on vhard or AOE attackers). So double think about might and accuracy perks, depend on which one artefacts or hero level you get.

In manual there is explanation how moves cost. 2 per turn for fly for all tiles. For non-flying perked heroes (and neutrals) 1 for roads, 4 for trees-stones, 2 for else, and not sure 6 or 8 for water. Elves ignore trees-stones, flyers ignore water.
Battles cost 50% of hero maximum. There is trick to make 3 battles per turn - trick with +moves% boots (by take them off in proper time).

Unfortunately cities do not give anything except HP regen. Unless mods.
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Another one thing (back to tech). WinVista\7 not so good with render used in Dis1\2 by default. There is option to run on DDraw for Dis1 and D3D for Dis2. Ddraw also didnt work by default on Win7 ('rainbow colors')
Win8+ broke even D3D. Disciples 2 although have normal stable FPS work slower and with huge delays. Especially for AI turns. GOG already solve that by their own GOGDX wrapper (dxcfg.exe tool for some basic configurates for it optional ones, you can keep al as by applciation).

There is also OpenGL wrapper mod aka DisciplesGL by Verok (for all 3 Disciples games, Dis1, 2 and ROTE). It support game speed wrapping, add hidden-removed obj clouds as addition to birds (some fan-made modders retexture it but didnt release outside of the mod - Motlin mod), make game work always windowed (borderless fullscreen or normal windowed) - so game work even more flawless. This also work as widescreen and higher resolutions - but map are zoomed out. Widescreen hack for battles are optional - it still be widescreen. There is still some disadvantages for it - no hot-keys working.

Look at another threads here for links.

DLC with The_Alliance_Crusade also come with some maps (one of them is 2nd map from that DLC campaign) and few more pre-made heroes at differ levels in addition to old 12 ones. Installer linked in "Did ROTE is Gold...". It also partially work as patch. But you can skip that for now, since you start with base Disciples 2.

Verok also did HeroesGL mod. For all Heroes, and Chronicles too unlike HD+ mod (HD+ now include HeroesGL as a render option).

There is Dis2ModdingTool dll file on github, mostly for modders, but also useful for end-users. I dont think it is good idea to use it if it is first experience with Disciples. It add useful UI improvements like visual calculator of moves cost. Also it make possible to cities give gold (and even mana, like Capital do) to owner. It have many else for modders. So probably there is mod that make neutral cities unique for each faction 9depend on current owner) like it be in Disciples 1.

Hey QWEEDDYZ, thanks a lot again for all the info, both gameplay-related and technical solutions for running the game in best conditions! I have also checked out the other threads you mentioned for getting the game to run (I use Windows 7).

One more thing for now - you said in your first post: I've watched the Disciples 1 intro, but you also suggest the Disciples 4 (Liberation?) outro? did I understand that correctly? I thought the newest installment had essentially nothing to do with the Disciples 1+2.

EDIT: ah sorry, I think you simply meant to check out the 4 different endings of Disciples 1 :) then (after reading the manuals) watch the 2 intros from Gallean's Return expansions to know how the original game ended canonically!

I mean 4 outro's one per each faction. Empire-Legion partially canon (both ending are true), Clans and Undead canon. Clans-Undeads-Legions-Empire.
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Same for Dis2. Again Empire and Legion share same ending at differ sides of view to it, and Undead+Clans separate. And unlike Dis1 Empire-Legion, Dis2 ending didnt explained in GR which one side achieve it. But they have same end for them both, result was same. Well, i guess it not a spoiler if i say all campaigns in all Disciples ended with some bossfights. Dis2 ended with some bossfight and result is death of boss, so it not a big deal who canonically kill. Both ending are even more true than Disciples 1 Empire-Legion outro's.

(Undead bossfight is a joke. That boss set to free will on the map, and so it is rarest neutral that can try to flee from battle, that make it easier - you do some damage for free and then go to second battle with damaged enemy party)
(there is more neutrals set to free in RotE)(or there is few skirmish maps with that, they sometimes can attack cities of neutrals differ sub-factions... or attack main-faction owned city and take it back)
(on Empire 2nd mission there is Ork King neutral party (higher tier ork, with ogre in the party as well) who stand near same sub-faction 'Greenskins' city - and he go to the garrison while garrison goblins go out, killing him there is almost like attack Capital, cause King have armor himself plus 30% from City 5lvl defence)

If you already start campaign you probably get it who is a boy in first intro. He is alive (as on Disciples 1 one of outro too). First who sees him is... mmm... 2nd missions for Legion and Undead - they mirrored. As i remember next is 2nd mission for Clans, he appear during mission. And Empire much later.

So first mission is Undead (search for Emprie library and Timmoria minings) ("3 days before Empire starting"). Then Empire. As some prequel. Then more close to main story - Legions and then Clans. Clans 1st follow Legions first mission directly. Next ones is Legions and Undead 2nd missions which ones are mirrored. Then Clans and Undead go at differ stories.
Later Empire and Legions been more crossed campaigns like in Disciples 1. And kind of mirrored ending.

That probably enough cause of spoilers. Most important i did tell, who start first. And Clans 2nd go after Legion-Undead 2nd. Someone probably start 3rd while Empire should stay on 2nd mission. Empire find that boy last of them all.
Just start 1st for all, look for briefings Day1. Then go finish Undead, Empire, Legions, Clans. Then start all 2nd missions, Go to almost end of Undead-Legion-Clans-Empire. Then end in that order. Start and look what happened at Day1 for 3rd mission and who looks like go more further in story. More like Clans-Hordes-Legions-Empire cause of Clans and Undeads separated you can for next missions start with them and end with more closer-crossed-mirrored Legions-Empire.

(2nd Clans mission have interested side-quest that considered as canon, but been side-quest it is optional and you can failed it - there is even dialogues for fail, but Empire campaign consider you achieve it)
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Done with spoilers plot staff. Back to gameplay.

Cant say for sure which one heroes are better for campaign. IMO it is mage leaders cause only them can use staff-scrolls. At other side, you can hire mage hero leave him somewhere in safe and give him(\her) all staffs and scrolls. Target can be anyone. There is always a reason for having mage hero in campaign. And sometimes there is a more reasons. Or opposite maybe... I remember Empire mage unit is just ordinary mage. Undeads mage leader is more important cause of fire damage and if you decide to use Death unit you didnt have 1-slot mage in party except Lich Queen or Nosferat heroes (i still prefer for campaign have both Lich Queen mage hero and Wyvern-Dreadwyrm, or Nosferatu is very fun at the end of campaign, but pain at start - unique experience for campaigns).
But same Undeads is good example where is Warrior is main - for skirmish or multiplayer. At 16 lvl he is not comparable for mage and even Nosferat (who can clear most of the 6-7 missions maps in solo), but in skirmish it is about low-level gameplay.

Warrior-leader is also a good tank (better than even two warrior units, cause you can have all 3 back row units). You also can put warrior unit at back and upgrade him to 2nd level then move him to mage hero. So even for Empire probably start with Warrior (and Tutorial).
It is easier. Also him as a one-single target attacker have better chances for some artefacts. Other atrefacts work better for mages. Both types in Empire campaign. On 3rd mission you can get (or miss it is for side-quest) artefact better for warrior, on end of 6 mission you get better for mage.
Anyway, theoretically you can switch main hero any time during campaign. Lord and heroes is not the same thing.

Scouts initially have boots perk, Warriors have artefact perk and Mages have spheres perk. Summon spheres can be useful cause you can upgrade leadership only on 3 and 6 levels (so it is up to 4th mission). Same for summon unit for Empire. Mage hero in first Empire mission can summon zombie from zombie sphere for last battle or some else. Ork sphere during 2nd mission. At low-level missions Mages still useful as a main.

BTW, all units have differ increasing stats before 10 level and after. Each unit have own rate, in general it like 10% before 10 level and 5% after (maximum 99)(in Disciples 1 there is no overlevels at all, and 8lvl max for heroes).
BTW2, on harder difficulties AI+neutrals have EXP bonus. Usually that make have neutrals +1-2 levels.

For others it depends on which one - all factions have one main (where 5 lvl upgrades +most path's) - main unit. Empire is warriors - 4 path, two of them 5lvl, 3 of 4 have unique abilities.
(some Dis1 leftovers: one of dwarfs warriors is replaced old 4lvl to 5lvl with some changes, not enough changes to make that new-old 5lvl balanced, too weak for his gold+EXP cost; Empire faction have Angel who supposed to be higher attack specification like in Dis1 (3 upgrade path), but in Dis2 (4 upgrade path) there is Holy Avenger with 75x2 attack which one are more than Angel - devs should put him as upgrade for Angel or swap them but they didnt, as result Angel is useless - you chose between attack, armor-hp and mind immune(+low EXP) - Holy Avenger, Defender of Faith or Grand Inquisitor)
BTW3, Disciples 2 is awesome art+animators job - forget about stats, all units deserve to be seen just for their attack animations! :) ... and for someone for their stand animation.

Empire (and in RotE also Elven Alliance) is most easiest faction cause of most balanced party you can have - perfect balanced: AOE mage, single DD archer, support unit and 3 front tanks. Support also is healer.
Other faction can have it too - just differ support units. And some mages are two-block units... unless it is hero-mage. Undead archers are upgraded from mage (so mage is only one of two their heroes or two-sized Wyvern, if you chose Warrior hero and Elder Vampire 1-sized mage - you cant have archers)
Legion archer is only Gargoyle who is 2-slot sized. Mage share his upgrades with support unit. Another mage is again 2-sized - Tiamath. There is also good two-sized warrior unit - Fiend (+poison +low EXP cost for overlevels).
Same for Clans and most useless support unit at low levels.

So everyones except Empire and Elves are hard chose for party in general and who to pick as a hero. For Legion if you pick mage - you need archer Gargoyle. For Empire it not so important for hero. Mage unit is still mage, Warrior still can be accompanied in front row with Defenders. I guess everyone start with Empire when first play Disciples games. Tutorial also by Empire side.

Mage lord is really only one who can research 5 lvl spells, and again you can get lvl spell for other two lords. Buy 5 lvl spells if there is ones in Mage Tower is free for anyone (except high level summon spells not available in Mage Towers, and there is such spells on 5lvl for Undead and Legions)

Mage Towers is only one thing player can lose to AI. Spells there can be buy only once and AI do buy them. Mercenaries unlimited. AI try not to use baff potions (only healing and resurrection ones). So Mage Towers is something better get before AI and dont care for anything else.

You also can try steal spells from enemy by Thieves. Or by destroying Capital which one very hard and require unit overlevels especially if hero itself is low-level ('low' early mission).

I disagree that D1 is worse than H1. Moreover, with years passing I came to sincerely thinking that D1 is better than D2, it''s more consistent and more cozy.

For me personally, D1 = H2, both of them > D2, then comes H1 > H4 > H3.

That is a hilariously gonzo opinion, thanks for sharing!

Disciples 1 being more cozy than Disciples 2 is unsurprising: the second game is renowned for being pure dark fantasy. Whether you like dark fantasy or not is a matter of taste (it's the main attraction for me personally).
You say D1 is more consistent than D2: how so? If anything, the identity of the Disciples series only became fully fledged with the second game.

I cannot see how one might prefer Heroes 1 over Heroes 3 or Heroes 4, unless simplicity is seen as a virtue.

Disciples 1 is... Dis2 Alpha version (few screens on online stores, few multimedia in goodies, more on retail CD bonus folders goodies which one are missing on GOG) have art-design Dis1 should have. Such thing as wait and defend are missing. Auto-battle and instant resolve too (Instant appear as patch 1.1 for Dis2).

And in term of thread subj - worse at plot. Campaigns are short (4x4 maps for main story). Even during main story 16 missions there is almost no scripted dialogues. Hmm maybe even Divine Empire have more dialogues? They come only as Day# events and Taking City events.

Battles gameplay and plot - are worse. That's for sure. In general still I'm personally can't say one better than another. ROTE a bit worse than GR. Dis1 is not have better AI like someone new say.

Dis1 heroes are limited to 8 lvl with perks (most usetul) limited by Lord type. Same as Critical Hit for Warrior Lord in ROTE.

But there is for sure things Disciples 1 are better. Even Art - Neutral Cities have unique screens for city levels and ownership (also Lord portrets). There is no unit over levels which one are huge difference. Make Disciples 1 more interesting... In Multiplay too. There no 1 uber-party - you need hire more and more units to keep collect (not waste) experience. Ofc there is more things. Some pros for Dis2, some things are missed in Dis2 (and some units).
So for Skirmish/MP D1 maybe even better than Dis2/ROTE. But not for campaign.

So campaign is only why I named Dis1 are worse (for plot). Whole game is 50/50. They differ. I just skip that point back then (offtop).

Thanks for detailing your thoughts, QWEEDDYZ - indeed, since I am interested in story-driven campaigns (which is why I started this thread), I appreciated your focus on that in earlier posts. I haven't started playing Disciples 2 yet because of IRL reasons but after moving home this coming spring I should finally be able to get into it!

If keep to "which one to start" topic:
any. First is first. It be look worse after Dis2 (so better start from Dis1). But few missing gameplay and UI things, a bit less intuitive UI (heroes hands for items). It be easier to start from Dis2, you get into series, and Dis1 more interesting as prequel for Dis2 ("wow, that one was differ in Dis1" effect play through). Disciples 1 are harder. AI same. But magic more deadly.
Still it was first. And if you not completely newbie to genre (not consoles/zoomer player), you give game more score if you start from it. I'm start from D2, for me Dis1 is Dis2 without overlevels. I miss one gameplay EXP and get another. It is up to newcomer chose which one you prefer to get.

Without over levels gameplay are switch from party survival (defense) to party effectiveness (damage). From Paladin to Angel for Empire warriors. Capitals cannot be destroyed. That increase replay ability. You more free to chose units. While in Dis2 for Empire you chose Holy Avenger for DD (Guardians require a lot of DMG too, there is still limit in battle turns) or Defender for armor (IMHO Avenger better - need DMG) - for regular battles better are Grand Inquisitor. In Dis1 there is less damage, less boost's, less EXP cap's, so it is not limited to Inquisitor even for regular battles.

I began with D2 in times it had been released, and became acquainted with D1 later - and still, I prefer D1.

And D1 is dark fantasy as well (just run the game and enjoy the main menu), it's more epic, while D2 is more grounded. Moreover, while units graphics in tactical battles are obviously better in D2, everything else - units portraits, leaders portraits, spells animation, GUI as a whole - is better in D1.

D1 soundtrack is absolutely amazing, it's better than D2's, the voice acting is better too.

The bigger unit upgrade tree in D2 is not such an advantage for a second glance (although not to such degree as it is in H2 vs H3, where H3 spoiled everything with its idiotic 'upgrade everyone' thing, making factions and their battle tactics almost identical).

And D2 campaigns are... well, slightly trite story-wise and writing-wise.

It's like saying the same about H3 as the identity of HoMM series. The identity of Disciples series came alive in D1 already in full glory. D2 just tried to make it even better... well, with kinda controversial results (as well as in H3 case).