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Cyberpunk 2077I hope CDPR sees and reads this(33 posts)(33 posts)
(33 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 16, 2020
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skerbl: A morality system would be a terrible idea. Karma points? Paragon/Renegade points? Light Side/Dark Side points? Don't make me laugh, those are all shit. Even slightly more sophisticated systems like DnD's 2-dimensional Alignment system usually turn out not to work too well in video game adaptations. Personally, I'd rather *not* be judged by the games that I play.

Allow me to illustrate the silliness with an example of how dialogs usually play out in NWN2:
Random Stranger: "Please, oh noble adventurer, I implore you to help me with this urgent thing!"
Me: "How much do you pay?"
The Game: "Your actions have shifted your alignment 2 point(s) toward Evil."
Thank you, game.
This is actually not an exaggeration, I remember too well how NWN 2's alignment system often confused greed (asking for more money, or asking poor people for money) was the same thing as evil (which would have been refusing to help at all, but then again... really? 10 coins to free us... say no and you're evil for not putting your life on the line). Of course, in games with "alignment systems" it usually turns out that you can make the final good / bad choice regardless of your alignment. The worst, of course, is that the game allows a completely evil character to make good choices (usually because the player knows that the good choice gives better equipment).

Alignment systems in games usually feel gamey, not a restriction you place on your character to better build up your character... but something that gives you rewards or penalties which might have nothing to do with your character.

As it stands, I'm keeping my V as non-lethal as possible, not because the game rewards it, but because I view her as someone who knows the system is trash and spits you out. Throw an alignment system in there and what, should V's that go around blasting on people start growing horns? This is NC, the value of life is what you make of it.

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Creed255: All good points but also, every fixer in Night City knows V. I drove through various parts of the city and got bombarded with 50 gigs to complete because I'm "the best and was recommended". Is that not enough to make you question V's place in Night City? Are they, honestly, just another 'cog' in the machine? Cuz this cog seems pretty important.
Gamification. You used to have to start at a tavern to find quests, talk to people. Now open world games tend to be more "drive to this point to start a quest".
Post edited December 16, 2020 by malikhis
Posted December 16, 2020
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Creed255: Okay, but explain how everyone in Night City knows V's name?
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Archonsod: One minute with a scanner and I've got anyone's name, criminal record etc ...

Not everyone knows your name, note even your downstairs neighbour doesn't know your name, you have to remind him about a conversation before he even recognises you.
You're known to a couple of the fixers at the start because it's shown you and Jackie have been building a reputation as a team that can get things done. All of the other fixers tell you in their intro call that they've been passed your name. Fixers are little more than employment agents though, and while there's only a few we meet in the game in the setting there's thousands; while the Padre is important to us because we work with him, he could be a small fish in the grand scheme of things. The only 'top tier' fixer you really meet is Rogue, and even she's past her prime at this point.

the ludicrous amounts of theft and murder they commit should be enough to raise eyebrows.
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Archonsod: Unlikely. This is Night City.. The accepted means of promotion in a corporation is to assassinate the guy who's job you want, and your boss will praise you for the initiative. If you want to keep that job you're expected to bump off any ambitious underlings, and the only thing the corporation will care about is whether it hurts the bottom line. The city government's answer to the homeless problem is to nerve gas the tunnels they're living in, and areas of the city are designated a combat zone simply because nobody sees any profit in trying to establish order there, Bands of looters, murderers and rapists frequently raid the outskirts and neither the city nor the corporations do anything about it unless they become a problem to their plans. You think in the middle of all this anyone's going to care you bumped off some corpo private security and stole a biochip?
Ah, good point. I guess I take V as the protag they are rather than the insignificant bug they truly are to the denizens of Night City. I understand your perspective.
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skerbl: A morality system would be a terrible idea. Karma points? Paragon/Renegade points? Light Side/Dark Side points? Don't make me laugh, those are all shit. Even slightly more sophisticated systems like DnD's 2-dimensional Alignment system usually turn out not to work too well in video game adaptations. Personally, I'd rather *not* be judged by the games that I play.

Allow me to illustrate the silliness with an example of how dialogs usually play out in NWN2:
Random Stranger: "Please, oh noble adventurer, I implore you to help me with this urgent thing!"
Me: "How much do you pay?"
The Game: "Your actions have shifted your alignment 2 point(s) toward Evil."
Thank you, game.
avatar
malikhis: This is actually not an exaggeration, I remember too well how NWN 2's alignment system often confused greed (asking for more money, or asking poor people for money) was the same thing as evil (which would have been refusing to help at all, but then again... really? 10 coins to free us... say no and you're evil for not putting your life on the line). Of course, in games with "alignment systems" it usually turns out that you can make the final good / bad choice regardless of your alignment. The worst, of course, is that the game allows a completely evil character to make good choices (usually because the player knows that the good choice gives better equipment).

Alignment systems in games usually feel gamey, not a restriction you place on your character to better build up your character... but something that gives you rewards or penalties which might have nothing to do with your character.

As it stands, I'm keeping my V as non-lethal as possible, not because the game rewards it, but because I view her as someone who knows the system is trash and spits you out. Throw an alignment system in there and what, should V's that go around blasting on people start growing horns? This is NC, the value of life is what you make of it.
I forgot about NWN and NWN 2 XD Thanks for reminding me of them ; - ; But you're both right: the developers often choose what's considered 'evil', 'grey' or 'good': same as any game master irl and I seemed to have forgot the worst of the D&D games that made that system really weird. My b
Post edited December 16, 2020 by Creed255
Posted December 16, 2020
This is going to sound a bit brutal, but here goes: Currently this game is an RPG in much the same way Diablo or Diablo 2 was. Obviously, the general problem with suggesting that the Diablos are role-playing games is that you're not really role-playing at all. You're going through a story on complete rails where you can do certain activities for certain rewards, but you can also skip them if you do not care. The only "character choice" that you really have is the choice of weapon you use to murder everything in your way.

The story of V is pretty much the same thing. The story is by and large on rails, and all the significant details will happen the same way regardless of what we do. The plot is strongly predetermined. The quests from fixers are predetermined. What we do or don't do to various gangs (and how we do it) will have zero impact on anything, and the game world takes no notice. We can murder more people than plague and cause major disturbances and not even get mentioned in the news. What "character choice" do we ultimately have? Romance options, visuals, and our choice of weapon used to murder everything in our way.

There is some illusion of a deep story, but nothing we do changes anything. Certain people live, certain people do not, and player choice has practically no impact on anything. We can't even build up relations with various named merchants because all merchants have largely the same inventory and they all have the same rates. Whether we get our chrome from our close friend Vik or some random clown that we just met has zero impact. There is an early quest to go shooting with a local gun dealer that we know, but does that quest change anything at all? It does not.

CDPR have stressed that this is not sci-fi GTA, but frankly it currently is precisely that. I like the game, but it is a story-telling action game with some character customization. It isn't even a bad RPG, because for that to be the case then it would need to actually let V's actions have an impact.
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This is my favourite topic
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Cyberpunk 2077I hope CDPR sees and reads this(33 posts)(33 posts)
(33 posts)