Greetings !

1st: the "forum" link from my game library doesnt work, so i had to manually find this sub forum.
2nd: i damn love that game, i had been playing the board game and tabletop rpg some 30 years ago in my early teenagehood, for a decade until i finished college in fact... and this new battletech game is great for me (aside from some tech issues like memory leak and such)

Now the proper question (warning: boring stuff if you are not super into the game so you may wanna pass and go back to regular posts)

I got a cute Trebuchet TBT-5N, 50t of love
It has a powerful loadout of 2x LRM15 (+2 slots of ammo) and 2x Medium Laser, but barely no Heat Dissipation except the base core reactor (which is 30 points btw, but is not explained in the game)
And yet the cute thing has 600 armor points (and 416 internal structure points)

Recently got a ShadowHawk SHD-2D, 55t
I didnt like the stock loadout though, so i wanted to change it.
Also the 2D version is litteraly paperweight armored, as stated in the lore text. (360 armor points, but 456 internal)
I try to give it same loadout of the Trebuchet TBT-5N (2xLRM15 + 2xMediumLaser)
I also add 2 heat sink and 5 jumpjets (jumpjets on medium Mechs are 0.5t each), so i have 4.5t of additional equipement compared to the Trebuchet here.

And then i look and i still have 0.5 tons left...

Now you may be as puzzled as i am !

Same weapon loadout, 5t gap between TBT-5N and SHD-2D and yet one has 600 armor the other 360... and i can barely add any more (like, well, 0.5t)
At first i told myself: ok the armor point / ton ratio must be worse for a 55t than a 50t and that's why, even if they are both "medium tier"... i look and for each, 1t of armor = 80points

So my question: what did happen to the armor ?
How can the total armor points can be so different AND in disfavor of the heavier Mech, with same weapon loadout, and the tonnage gap difference of 5t filled up with additional equipement...

because here the 55t is missing 4t of armor over the 50t.

You could tell me: yeah but hey, remove the jumpjets and heatsink and convert the extra 5t into armor and you got it fixed !

Well, no, because this means one mech needs 5 more tons than the other to have same armor rating.
You'll argue "yeah but the 55t has slitghly more interla structure points"... yea, they have 40 points of difference. I dunno for internal rating and weight ratio, but 40 points (if it were regular armor and not internal) is just 0.5t worth

So: where did the armor go on the ShadowHawk 2D and what the heck did happen on this one ?

I think the main issue are the things that we have no control over and do not even see in the mech lab in this game, namely internal structure and engine (while both have similar speed, the Shawk has a 275 instead of 250 to make up for the heigher weight). The Trebuchet with just structure and the engine (no armor or equipment) comes in at a weight of 23.5 (so 26.5 free), the Shawk at 27 (so 28 free). Since my most time spent with Battletech was in MW:O, the data I took came from smurfy, a mech lab editor for it.You could check the numbers ingame if you strip them of everything (since we cannot change engines, internals or armor type)

well, the internal structure in my example was only 40 more points for the shadow hawk, so i felt it was not enough to explain 240 points worth of armor gap...

however yes, i forgot about the engine (my days with the boardgame were 3 decades ago ) and i suspected too that even within same Mech weight tier, there may had been some differences at a step between two tonnages like 50 and 55

still at first i sure was puzzled and felt funny about that :)

Some mechs are simply better than others, I don't think there is supposed to be balance there.
Better engineering, more efficient use of volume and therefore weight etc...

Eh... no, or at least it shouldn't. In order to build your own designed Mech there's a set of rules, and you don't have any leeway to be more efficient or have better engineering.

In this case your internal structure weights exactly a tenth of the total weight of the mech, and you have to multiply the weight of the mech by the number of walking movement points you want to get the power of the engine. After that, you search the list of engines to get how much that engine weights. No more, no less.

In later additions to the "standard" game (3035) you get new tech to modify that: endosteel structure for example weights half of normal IS, but it takes 14 crit slots, or XL Fusion Engines also weights half but doubles the crit slots it takes expanding to the side torso bays, so you can be "cored" even without breaching the CT.

As you see later on you get options to modify efficiency, but at the cost of space. And not in this game (or at least not yet!).

You can have a look to Remlab to experimet with it:
http://remlab.sourceforge.net/remlab30/mech.lab

The way I see it: the different frames are different. If you took a Ford Mustang and a Chevy Camaro and outfitted them with similar engines, suspension, tires, etc. then you would still have two very different cars that behaved very differently on the race track. It would be silly to demand that they be exactly the same. This is the way it works in the real world.

It's also silly to demand that this game be exactly the same as (one of the versions of) the miniatures game.

The 2D variant of Shadow Hawks appear to have a hidden armor point penalty. I thought I would like the 2D but after some experimentation with refits it appers to have a soft cap on armor and putting more on does not give you the full 80 points per ton that you would get on the other variant. It lets us spend the tonnage and time to refit it but we do not get the full benefit of those tons spent on armor.

This may have been put in by the devs to fit the description of this as an underarmored and overgunned mech.

To me the fact that it cannot be fit in similar configurations to my SHD 2H makes it useless. I immediately send them to storage and sell them now, even though I am actively hunting for more SHD 2H mechs.

The worst part is that it does not tell us precisely how much this penalty is or how much armor we can leave on without triggering it or if there is any buff elsewhere to offset this.The only hint I have seen of this penalty in the UI is an odd looking armor bar when looking at the summary in the mech bay.

Rest assured that the SHD 2H does not have this penalty and is thus a much better mech.

well, my current custom refit/loadout build of the Shadow Hawk 2d packs up jumpjets, an AC5, 3 medium lasers, 2 small lasers, and 1040 armor points... compared to the stock 2D variant, it so far had felt like a good tradeoff for me on the field :)

so i dont know about the armor penalty for the 2D, but i found a build for it that is quite well armored (1040 is what you find on stock 65-70 tons heavies) and decent weaponry (though no indirect fire because no LRM, sure, but the AC5 has decent range, and at closer range you still can fire up the 3 mediums and the ac5 a few rounds stratight before getting overheat)

if you can find some stability/damage increased versions of an AC5 and/or +damages on mediums, you get a decent little funny mech.

But yes, for the 2H... at first i disliked the mech, and now i went to the feeling that the shadow hawk, both versions, is the most useful medium mech i ever have compared to wolverines, or griffins or similar tons mechs. yeah yeah yeah, i see your point

i just wanted to highlight a situation when some clear lack of information, through some hidden variables or whatever, can really puzzle the player, weitiher he is seasoned one in tactical genre and/or the original boardgame, or a newcomer as well.

(anyway, the physical boardgame and tabletop RPG could always explain such differences through specific abilities of different manufacturer's inner parts, so it never struck me much at that time)

but lets completely forget the tabletop version; and look at it from the video game perspective alone... it is puzzling, just wanted to point out at that....

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Greetings again

This time another "loadout" oddity that puzzles me much

But please, lets just look at it from a curiosity point of view, not from a complaining one. It just has the sole purpose of giving some "insights" about customization of mechs for people who may not be very familiar with it, i hope, too...

I got a Trebuchet TBT-5N in a second side campaign of mine
Stock loadout is 2 x LRM15 + 2 tons of LRM ammo (so, 8 rounds of 30 missiles salvo), 3 medium lasers, no jumpjet
Trebuchet is a 50 tons Medium mech with 416 internal structure and 600 armor points

I also have the Centurion CN9-A that you are given early through main story missions, a 50 tons medium mech too
I usually refit it with the following custom layout:
3x LRM 10 + 3 tons of LRM Ammo (so, 12 rounds of 30 missiles salvo), 2 Medium lasers (there are only 2 energy weapons hard points)... I still manage to give it a little additional heatsink, and 3 jumpjets. It has 416 internal structure but also... 720 points of armor !

Lets compare them quickly

Centurion LRM10 x3 weights +1 ton compared to the Trebuchet's LRM15 x2
Centurion has 1 more ton of LRM ammo, so +1 ton
Centurion has 1 less medium laser, so -1 ton
Centurion has 1 additional Heatsink, so +1 ton
Centurion has 1.5 ton of jumpjets so +1.5 tons
Centurion has 120 more armor points, so +1.5 tons of armor

Basically, my centurion has +5 tons worth of loadout equipment than the Trebuchet, it fires as many missiles, but for 50% longer, can jump, has one less laser (lets say the heat sink replaces it) and has more armor... But they both are 50 tons !

However the Trebuchet seems to have more movement capacity than the Centurion (which is slow as hell) and the quick view "movement bar" is bigger even while the centurion's jumpjets artificially add to the overall movement value.

So i have to suppose Trebuchet's engine would be somehow heavier/bigger, to allow such increased movement at the expanse of 5 tons worth of stuff... However, for a long range artillery unit, is it really a good trade-off ?
I wish the game could give better insight intel about such kind of engine's difference because, if not for the movement (which, for it's stock role, is not very relevant) the whole difference of "5 tons" worth of equipment really seems puzzling and odd, at best !

My conclusion: maybe the Trebuchet should be refit into a front/contact unit to take advantage of increased (and heavier) movement engine... Because as it is, as stock role and loadout, it is clearly not optimal, if you compare to, for example, my Centurion. And even then, i could "gain" another more ton by replacing the 3 LRM10 by 2 LRM15 (but early in the game, i didnt have any spare LRM 15 to put on it) as it would weifght less and cost less heat.

Oh and secundary conclusion: this gives some tip about how to take advantage of a battlemech you are given each time by the main storyline quests, without praying for randomness of other mech model's encounter and salvageable parts. So if you are new to the game and need some early game good artillery unit, that is a solution you can count on. Because chances are you will get this Centurion CN9-A faster than you'll encounter enough Trebuchets to salvage 3 piece of it,and the stock's loadout of the CN9-A is easily "beaten" by other stock Mechs in same category, so...

Puzzing and odd.. that's all i say...

I have now noticed less armor than should be expected on other mechs too from time to time. I think it may be a bug.

Great idea / comment. Always nice when there is a really simple solution to answer a question / need / issue.

It does not completely solve the issue however. I have done this with different Shadow Hawk variants and found that with the SHD-2D the math did not add up. Each ton of armor should be 80 points of armor. But when modifying the 2D the amount of tons of armor did not match this formula as soon as I changed the armor points, not even close. This may have been a bug or may have been intentional for this variant.

I would test it on the current game version but I have been selling off all 2D variants because of this and don't have any in storage.

trebuchet has error for max center torso armor. instead of 160 it has 120 maximum frontal armor. i suppose it's copy/paste typo (120 is max armor value for side torso and legs). can be solved by editing json.

40 armor points = 0.5 tons

it's not uncommon. commando has reduced max head armor (30, while all other mechs, including locust, have 45). also, some mechs have jump jets in arms, etc.

And my Battle Master (Assault) accepts Heavy Jump Jets rather than Assault Jump Jets. Not complaining... Figure this stuff will get worked out in the next few months of updates.

i don't know how to copy the posts of others the same manner you did so i'll just answer with your respective nicknames

to mimo :
The jumpjets tonnage doesn't stick to the same dicotomy of mech scale (if i remeber heavy jumpjets mounts on mechs up to 85 or 90 tons, so heavy jumpjets doesn't necessarily means heavy mech, it says so in the description of the heavy jumpjets)

regarding tonnage of mechs and the difference between this or that version, i think that the "core" mechs have the same tonnage (i thinnk that's a reasonable way to approach how to easily build the mechs at a "development" lvl; then again, those are just assumptions). To be clear, the way i see it, you have to strip the mechs appart, to undress them
- first is the core (shadowhawk, locust, cicada, w/e), each has one tonnage assigned [and a max one implied by their class]

- then the version : to add more configurations, the easiest way is to assign a specific tonnage to every attachement (for instance : missile attachement on a medium class = x tons, ballistic = y, now you can even be more specific and assign different tonnage depending on which limb the joint)

so the thing is to approach every mech differently (up to a point, because when you reach assault-lvl mechs, you'll already have more or less created a toon and a strategy that will be your own and will require this or that specificity) and try to make the best of it by letting as few attachement unused as possible.

also as a sidenote, do not trust the "bars" too much, heck i can fire endlessly with a mech that has a heat efficiency of 1 (because the game calculates, as far as efficiency and firepower goes at least, as if you were firing every weapon each round + jumped before firing), also the movement thing isn't reliable either.


regarding the Centurion/Trebuchet thingy :
They have different roles (hell even their names impliies so, one was a siege weapon and the other was hand to hand warrior, those are hints), trebuchet is kind of a supporter type mech, dealing constant dmg from afar, so he gets to wear the big guns, LRMs and shit, armor be damned
The Centurion is more of a frontliner, so armor and punch, close range encounters M-laser ranges, SRMs, and armor to withstand the shots from higher initiative mechs


now that was unexpectedly long from me, sorry for the lack of skill in english, and also for being sidetracked from what i wanted to say originally.
Enjoy the game