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Baldur's Gate seriesIf you don't like the SJW crap ruining games, do not buy Siege of Dragonspear (571 posts)(571 posts)
(571 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 03, 2016
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Jonesy89: I agree in theory that if the execution is shit that it warrants criticism, as would be the case with any idea. However, a lot of the flak seems to be directed at the very idea of this being done at all prior to playing the expansion to even see if the execution is shit; if people had actually played the game or at least seen it in action, I could at least understand criticism of the execution existing.
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tremere110: Was Hexxat a good character to you?
Never played the EE; I was referring to the flak directed at the expansion that people are going on about refusing to play.
Posted April 03, 2016
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GalacticKnight: .....

For the longest time, gamers and game developers have fought long and hard against those who demand games be censored and toned down due to graphic violence out of a sense of ultra-conversative morality. Often, this was done for show and politics, and most gamers saw it for what it was. Those who didn't investigate thoroughly enough, non-gamers, journalists, etc. were typically the ones who bought into this.

The current issue is that certain organizations similarly demand censoring and changes made to games out of a sense of being "appropriate" in another light. That being a burning desire to be politically-correct, to force diversity and push commentary approving political-correctness as it pertains to the real-world within fictional ones.
Looks to me like the ones advocating censorship are those complaining about gay characters and gay relationships existing in RPG's.
Posted April 03, 2016
low rated
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Totenglocke: Except that they didn't create a unique game series and lore to explore that stuff (they said in the linked interview that it's "too much effort" to be original) and instead decided to cram modern day political bullshit into a 20 year old game that takes place in a pre-established medieval fantasy world. That's why I don't care about that stuff being in Dragon Age or Mass Effect, because those are unique IPs that had that stuff from the start, not someone with an agenda shoehorning it in. Hell, go on YouTube and look up the SoD part where you meet the tranny - it literally has NOTHING to do with the plot and exists purely to say "We're so trendy for putting a tranny in our game!". There's nothing "petty" about expecting consistency within the game world, just as there's nothing petty with people being upset if a new author takes over an existing book series and decides to drastically change an existing character.

I'd have rolled my eyes and been a little annoyed at the forced "diversity" that doesn't fit the game, but you're right - if the author hadn't given an interview where they went full feminazi and made absurd claims of rampant sexism in the original game, I'd have bought this expansion as I'd been looking forward to it. Unfortunately for Beamdog, I have a strict policy against financially supporting a company that spews hatred for their customers and I have returned / refunded games for it in the past after learning about such behavior from employees before the return period was up. It's patently absurd that, generally speaking, with gaming / gaming "journalism" companies can get away with blatantly insulting their customers where any other industry that did that would see massive backlash.
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Mogan: It sounds more like you have a strict policy of making a big stink about nothing for the sake of attention and getting to be self righteous on the internet, but if you want to bring politics into video game buying it's your money. You sound just like an overzealous social justice warrior though. : \

Enjoy being angry I guess. I'm going to go play Baldur's Gate; there's a new expansion out for it!
Hey, if you want to give your money to a company that's public about hating you just for your gender / race / orientation, I can't stop you. It's a waste of your money and you're actively hurting all gamers, but I can't stop you.

Also, remember that they themselves said that Baldur's Gate was "problematic" and needs to be "fixed" to fit current extreme political views. So if you liked Baldur's Gate, you might not like the new "fixed" edition.
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SweatyGremlins: Part of the reason gay characters may seem 'out of place' is simply because they have been ignored in most media for a long time. D&D has its roots in Tolkien-ish, high fantasy (I think!), and the closest we got to a gay character there was bunch of hobbits playing touch in the shrubs.

Honestly, there's few things more camp than a bard prancing around with a lute, casting Faerie Lights and talking to animals; so I don't feel there's a strong argument for not having gay characters running around in D&D.

Just having gay NPCs does not make a game political either... unless the character is badly written, like "Hello! I am a blacksmith! By the way, I am a raging homosexual! Don't vote for Evil Lord Tonald Drump!"
Clearly you haven't seen the dialogue where you meet the tranny. It literally adds nothing to the plot at all. Also, Beamdog said that they put these things in the game purely to be "politically correct"...
Post edited April 03, 2016 by Totenglocke
Posted April 03, 2016
low rated
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Risewild: I am reminded of the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity in Baldur's Gate and Edwin in Baldur's Gate 2 changing sex due to the Nether Scroll.

Sex change magic exists in both the Baldur's Gate games since they were released, I don't see anything lore-breaking in it.
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Toast_burner: It seems all arguments about it breaking the lore are just people projecting their own homophobia onto the game's world.
Yes, because sex change items that were a joke are totally the same as putting in a character who literally says "My parents were wrong to think I was a boy just because I was born a boy" and has no further impact on the plot.
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Totenglocke: http://archive.is/Lwu6p#selection-1837.0-1849.123

Beamdog is pushing the SJW agenda with this expansion and spitting on the original games (ironic, since without those games, they'd be unemployed). If you don't support this crap, do not buy this game and make sure everyone knows what Beamdog is doing.
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ZellSF: It's OK to link to Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-back-baldur-s-gate-after-17-years-1768303595
They wrote the story you're using as a source, they deserve the traffic.

And if giving Jaheira and Safana more depth rather than have them be shallow stereotypes is a problem to you... Baldur's Gate II must have been devastating.
No Kotaku actively hates gamers as well as most video games. It's absolutely not OK to give them ad revenue. That would be like Obama linking directly to a KKK site in order to share their stupidity with others.
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GalacticKnight: .....

For the longest time, gamers and game developers have fought long and hard against those who demand games be censored and toned down due to graphic violence out of a sense of ultra-conversative morality. Often, this was done for show and politics, and most gamers saw it for what it was. Those who didn't investigate thoroughly enough, non-gamers, journalists, etc. were typically the ones who bought into this.

The current issue is that certain organizations similarly demand censoring and changes made to games out of a sense of being "appropriate" in another light. That being a burning desire to be politically-correct, to force diversity and push commentary approving political-correctness as it pertains to the real-world within fictional ones.
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Ssnake51: Looks to me like the ones advocating censorship are those complaining about gay characters and gay relationships existing in RPG's.
Nope, if you bothered to read the thread, you'd see that I've advocated FOR having gay characters in RPGs. I quite enjoy some of the gay relationship choices in Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I'm simply against forcing them into existing properties where those topics didn't exist. But like Beamdog said, creating original content would be "too much effort". No, seriously - click the link, they actually said that.
Post edited April 03, 2016 by Totenglocke
Posted April 03, 2016
high rated
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Totenglocke: http://archive.is/Lwu6p#selection-1837.0-1849.123
Couple thoughts here:

-The quote does kind of give off the vibe that they felt uncomfortable with some of the content. Reminds me a little of people who localize Japanese games and want to censor them, which I DO NOT SUPPORT. But... you will notice that Beamdog censored nothing. They kept everything in Baldur's Gate Enhanced, even the things that made them uncomfortable. That's fine by me.
-The expansion is Beamdog's story, and they do have the right to write it in any way they want, including putting a new spin on it.
-Views in society change all the time. The kind of themes used when BG first came out might not mesh with some people today. So if you're gonna write a new story, why not make it a little different?

I don't really see a problem here. One could argue they're just taking the easy route by writing Baldur's Gate fanfiction as opposed to a new, original story for a new game, but that's a whole different animal.
Posted April 03, 2016
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Totenglocke: http://archive.is/Lwu6p#selection-1837.0-1849.123
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Swonker: Couple thoughts here:

-The quote does kind of give off the vibe that they felt uncomfortable with some of the content. Reminds me a little of people who localize Japanese games and want to censor them, which I DO NOT SUPPORT. But... you will notice that Beamdog censored nothing. They kept everything in Baldur's Gate Enhanced, even the things that made them uncomfortable. That's fine by me.
-The expansion is Beamdog's story, and they do have the right to write it in any way they want, including putting a new spin on it.
-Views in society change all the time. The kind of themes used when BG first came out might not mesh with some people today. So if you're gonna write a new story, why not make it a little different?

I don't really see a problem here. One could argue they're just taking the easy route by writing Baldur's Gate fanfiction as opposed to a new, original story for a new game, but that's a whole different animal.
I would agree with this if it was a baldurs gate 3 that took place 10 years laters. It however is baldurs gate 1.5, so it should be in line with both BG 1 and 2. So no, it's not just their story. It's their story within the story of BG 1 and 2, which in it's turn is a story within the forgotten realms.

I for one absolutely hate it when companies retcons Stories and universes I love.
Post edited April 03, 2016 by Madoga
Posted April 03, 2016
Eh, as long as they didn't touch the originals, I'm fine either way. This expansion is basically glorified fan-fiction, so if they want to fill it with various examples of bland tokenism, more power to them. It's not like they're actually making a big difference with their efforts, and it's not like this new release is essential to play the Baldur's Gate series as it was originally intended to be played.

The fact that they stated that the original Baldur's Gate was "sexist", though? That little gem leads me to believe that they don't really understand the setting or the genre, so I'll probably give their releases a miss. It's nothing personal.
Posted April 03, 2016
Here's the thing. The original games are masterpieces. You need to take them warts and all. I'm fine with fixing mechanical issues, but don't fuck up the story, don't modernize it because it's "problematic", leave it as is and if you want to tell a story make your own damn game instead of fucking up an already established one. It would be like changing Shakespeare because you think that he's "problematic".
Posted April 03, 2016
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Aboresh: Here's the thing. The original games are masterpieces. You need to take them warts and all. I'm fine with fixing mechanical issues, but don't fuck up the story, don't modernize it because it's "problematic", leave it as is and if you want to tell a story make your own damn game instead of fucking up an already established one. It would be like changing Shakespeare because you think that he's "problematic".
They didn't change anything. The original story is completely unaltered.
Posted April 03, 2016
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verus27: I honestly can't remember any time in D&D where sexuality or gender has ever made a difference. Not to say that it never has, simply that I've never noticed it.
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dtgreene: Actually, I can name a few instances.

1. As I mentioned before, 1st edition AD&D (and the SSI Gold Box games based off those rules) limit the strength stat of female characters.

2. In the game's early history, there have been some articles in magazines that would be considered sexist by modern standards. This includes things like the "charm man" spell, and the use of Beauty in place of Charisma for female characters. Also, apparently there was a seduction table published at one point.

3. 2nd edition has the Amazon series of kits (one for each of the 4 basic classes). One trait I remember is that they got a bonus to hit (+3) on the first encounter with a male who had not encountered an amazon before. (There were some strict limitations on when that ability applies.)

4. In Baldur's Gate 2, Drow society has strict gender roles, albeit roles that are different from those in real life. (Note, for instance, how someone remarks on how rare female mages are if your character is one when you are disgused as Drow.)

Of note, the situation improved with time. 2nd edition got rid of the female strength limit, putting female characters at mechanical parity with males. 3rd edition mixed up the use of pronouns in the core rulebook (sometimes, "she" is used in place of "he" when referring to a character), and some of the iconic characters (Lidda and Mialee) are female. 5th edition's basic rules even has a part where it says something like "you don't have to be restricted to binary notions of sex and gender". (Anyone know the situation in 4th edition? I'm guessing it's like 3rd in this respect.)
I stand corrected. It's been to long since I've played D&D ...

I'm going to wait for reviews and (hopefully) writing discussions about the expansion before I decided whether to get it or not. I get concerned anytime I find a writer talking about some ideological problems they had with the material that they're basing their work on. I find it usually makes the new additions stand out as being not a part of the complete work.
Posted April 03, 2016
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Aboresh: Here's the thing. The original games are masterpieces. You need to take them warts and all. I'm fine with fixing mechanical issues, but don't fuck up the story, don't modernize it because it's "problematic", leave it as is and if you want to tell a story make your own damn game instead of fucking up an already established one. It would be like changing Shakespeare because you think that he's "problematic".
Actually, I generally disagree with fixing mechanical issues, except in cases where abilities simply don't. Having abilities work the way they do in the original unmodded game is part of the fun, especially when it allows you to do silly things like wield a flail while in the shape of a spider.
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Totenglocke: Clearly you haven't seen the dialogue where you meet the tranny.
You do realize that the word "tranny" is a slur and should not be used, right?
Post edited April 03, 2016 by dtgreene
Posted April 03, 2016
high rated
The games I play, the books I read, and the films I watch often have things I disagree with in them. And you know what? I like that. I am a person who likes having my views challenged, or at least having my little bubble invaded. During my lifetime, I've been at very different ends of the political spectrum and I've learned not to burn things to the ground just because I don't like them at that moment in my life. I am constantly revisiting my prior views as I get older, and now see differences of opinion not as threats, but as opportunities to grow as a person; it's part of the human experience. As a result of all this, I've learned to be an adult and appreciate outside opinions even if they have elements with which I disagree.

If you are enraged by exposure to things you disagree with, I highly recommend you avoid the internet and books for your own mental health. There are a lot of people who might hold different opinions than you do, and even incorporate them into their art. If you've been this angry ever since The Sims 1 was released complete with gay relationships, I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already said.
Posted April 03, 2016
Uh-oh. Somebody just posted an example of one of Minsc's new lines: http://webm.land/media/tmp/53223f64-efd8-4463-89ce-7521ec0b5766.webm

Time to batten down the hatches...
Posted April 03, 2016
low rated
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babby: The games I play, the books I read, and the films I watch often have things I disagree with in them. And you know what? I like that. I am a person who likes having my views challenged, or at least having my little bubble invaded. During my lifetime, I've been at very different ends of the political spectrum and I've learned not to burn things to the ground just because I don't like them at that moment in my life. I am constantly revisiting my prior views as I get older, and now see differences of opinion not as threats, but as opportunities to grow as a person; it's part of the human experience. As a result of all this, I've learned to be an adult and appreciate outside opinions even if they have elements with which I disagree.

If you are enraged by exposure to things you disagree with, I highly recommend you avoid the internet and books for your own mental health. There are a lot of people who might hold different opinions than you do, and even incorporate them into their art. If you've been this angry ever since The Sims 1 was released complete with gay relationships, I don't know what to tell you that I haven't already said.
That's a great quote for Amber Scott since she was the one offended by the game in the first place. The difference is that she screwed with a beloved, decades old work of art.

Would it be okay to go back and re-write Mark Twain's works because it offends some today?
Post edited April 03, 2016 by lumin
Posted April 03, 2016
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lumin: That's a great quote for Amber Scott since she was the one offended by the game in the first place. The difference is that she screwed with a beloved, decades old work of art.

Would it be okay to go back and re-write Mark Twain's works because it offends some today?
I don't know who that is, but even if I did, a tu quoque doesn't advance the discussion. If she is offended by it, then my post would also apply to her. Could you point out some significant examples of how Baldur's Gate has been re-written to remove things that might have offended people?
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This is my favourite topic
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Baldur's Gate seriesIf you don't like the SJW crap ruining games, do not buy Siege of Dragonspear (571 posts)(571 posts)
(571 posts)