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Hi all,

Before starting my play-through of BG1 I read some tips threads and one of the proposed classes was a Fighter/Mage. So when I made my character, I created it with the intention of dual-classing to it. Unfortunately I took a long break and I'm getting back into it now, but I'm not sure if I should follow through with my original plan or not. The issue is that I am frankly not a D&D expert, and I fear this playstyle may leave me gimped and unable to win the game.

Here is what I have so far:

Human Fighter level 6 with 47,935 exp

STR 18/49
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 6
CHA 8

72 HP

Long Sword +++
Long Bow ++
Single Weapon Style +

My party consists of Imoen, Khalid, Minsc, Jaheira and Dynaheir.

If I go through with dual-classing, should I swap now or wait until I get level 7 with fighter, to get an extra half attack? What is the playstyle like before I regain my fighter skills and what is it like after?

I am not concerned with being min/maxed to perfection, I just don't want to be gimped.

Thanks for any advice!
In my opinion there is no point dual classing in BG1, particularly in your case because you will not recover your fighter class until the game is virtually finished. Added to that, mages get very few spell slots in BG1 (in vanilla, anyway), and the lack of kits means you will be gimped. That doesn't mean the game will become unwinnable, just that I don't see much point in it. You would have been better off multi classing in BG1.

Edit: I notice you state 'Single Weapon Style'. That means you're not playing vanilla, so it might help to state exactly what mods you are running.
Post edited January 21, 2014 by Hickory
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Hickory: In my opinion there is no point dual classing in BG1, particularly in your case because you will not recover your fighter class until the game is virtually finished. Added to that, mages get very few spell slots in BG1 (in vanilla, anyway), and the lack of kits means you will be gimped. That doesn't mean the game will become unwinnable, just that I don't see much point in it. You would have been better off multi classing in BG1.

Edit: I notice you state 'Single Weapon Style'. That means you're not playing vanilla, so it might help to state exactly what mods you are running.
It's been quite a while but I'm fairly sure I followed the guide posted in "STICKY: Newbie guide; modding BG1 if you buy BG1 + BG2 from GOG". I didn't install Unfinished Business though.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Yeah that is kinda what I was worried about. I guess I will stick it out with fighter. Thing is though, I had planned to transfer my party to BG2 when I start that, and from the little I have read it seems magic is important in that one, so a pure fighter may be weak? When I start BG2 if I use my existing save will I have an opportunity to redo the build?
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Hickory: In my opinion there is no point dual classing in BG1, particularly in your case because you will not recover your fighter class until the game is virtually finished. Added to that, mages get very few spell slots in BG1 (in vanilla, anyway), and the lack of kits means you will be gimped. That doesn't mean the game will become unwinnable, just that I don't see much point in it. You would have been better off multi classing in BG1.

Edit: I notice you state 'Single Weapon Style'. That means you're not playing vanilla, so it might help to state exactly what mods you are running.
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novanus: It's been quite a while but I'm fairly sure I followed the guide posted in "STICKY: Newbie guide; modding BG1 if you buy BG1 + BG2 from GOG". I didn't install Unfinished Business though.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Yeah that is kinda what I was worried about. I guess I will stick it out with fighter. Thing is though, I had planned to transfer my party to BG2 when I start that, and from the little I have read it seems magic is important in that one, so a pure fighter may be weak? When I start BG2 if I use my existing save will I have an opportunity to redo the build?
If you export your fighter, and then import into BG2 you could then dual him/her. The situation is completely different in BG2, since XP is thrown at you at a tremendous rate -- even scribing scrolls grants you 1000 XP per spell level of the scroll being scribed, so there is no problem going from level 1 - 7 mage in BG2, and you'll have backup characters until you regain your fighter class. You will be given the chance to choose a kit, and because you will be dual classing to mage, I strongly suggest you take Kensai, since you will not be able to wear armour and cast spells -- Kensai is made for mage dual class.
Post edited January 21, 2014 by Hickory
If you're happy with your fighter there's no need to change anything. You already have one mage in the party.
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Hickory: In my opinion there is no point dual classing in BG1, particularly in your case because you will not recover your fighter class until the game is virtually finished. Added to that, mages get very few spell slots in BG1 (in vanilla, anyway), and the lack of kits means you will be gimped. That doesn't mean the game will become unwinnable, just that I don't see much point in it. You would have been better off multi classing in BG1.

Edit: I notice you state 'Single Weapon Style'. That means you're not playing vanilla, so it might help to state exactly what mods you are running.
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novanus: It's been quite a while but I'm fairly sure I followed the guide posted in "STICKY: Newbie guide; modding BG1 if you buy BG1 + BG2 from GOG". I didn't install Unfinished Business though.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Yeah that is kinda what I was worried about. I guess I will stick it out with fighter. Thing is though, I had planned to transfer my party to BG2 when I start that, and from the little I have read it seems magic is important in that one, so a pure fighter may be weak? When I start BG2 if I use my existing save will I have an opportunity to redo the build?
How are you launching the game? Are you running it by loading the baldur's gate 2 exe? If so, you're playing with Baldur's Gate Trilogy, which will automatically combine the two games into one. If you're launching it through some other method, then you're probably following the guide you mentioned, and have Tutu installed. Either way, it sounds like you're playing with the BG2 engine.

I'm going to assume that you're at least fairly familiar with how dual classing works: to remind you, you choose to dual class at any time, though generally immediately after levelling, and then you lose the class abilities bar hp of your first class (fighter) and begin levelling as the second class (mage). When you have more mage levels than fighter levels, you'll regain your fighter abilities and be rather powerful.

I'm afraid I haven't done a fighter/mage dual class. I have, however, done a fighter/cleric, which I'd imagine has similarities during the early part of the dual classing. I've also done a thief/mage, which would be similar later on. To begin with, your character will receive something of a nerf: although you retain the hit points so are still quite survivable, you're going to lose a lot of thac0 (hit chance, if you've forgotten) and other things. For a while, you'll be virtually useless, casting your couple of first level spells and then shooting at enemies with your bow, and hoping to hit. During this time, your party will be covering for you: in combat, you'll effectively have about 5 and a half party members. However, because the xp costs to level grow exponentially (as do the xp rewards for killing stronger monsters), you'll gain your first 6 or so levels quite quickly, and will then be a useful if somewhat weaker than normal character.

When you regain your fighter abilities, you'll obviously still be a bit behind Dynaheir in terms of levels, but will have much more survivability and will be able to actually fight in combat, which is more than can be said for a pure mage. What's more, as time passes (particularly in BG2) due to the aforementioned exponential growth, this will become more and more inconsequential quite rapidly. Within a level or so after you regain your fighter abilities, you'll overtake a pure mage like Dynaheir, and probably become one of the more - if not the most - useful character in your party.

As for when to do it, that depends somewhat on what you plan to use your fighter/mage for. If you just want a mage with some more hp so they don't die so rapidly, then you should dual class now, and should probably have done so some time ago, at level 2 or 3. However, fighter/mages shine especially well with buff spells like (in BG2) stoneskin and tenser's transformation. The latter in particular is intended to transform a mage into someone on about a level with a fighter for melee combat. Guess what happens when you get a fighter/mage to cast it. If you plan to use buffing spells and fight - sometimes - in melee or with a bow, then you should get that level 7 for the half attack. I'm not sure what xp cap Tutu has in place, but you'll still be able to get your fighter abilities back within the TotSC xp cap. I'd recommend going down that route, especially if you want to try out spells to let you fight in melee.

Either way, with those stats, you'll make a significantly better mage than fighter, since Con is...not great for a tank, while you have 18 Intelligence.

You mentioned that you weren't concerned with being min/maxed to perfection, so I'm going to disagree with Hickory here and say that you should dual class during BG1, when you hit seventh level. The dual class may be slower, but you'll have come into your own as a fighter/mage in plenty of time for the last battles of BG1. I think you'll also have a more in depth and - hopefully - enjoyable experience of the dual classing process if you aren't exploiting the rather cheesy tactics that Hickory mentioned (wait for the BG2 xp rise, then immediately start dualling). If you do decide to go down that route, though, you'll probably be best off dualling at either level 10 - when you stop gaining large amounts of hp - or level 13, when you get another half attack. I'll also disagree with him about choosing Kensai. The Kensai/mage dual class is powerful - extremely powerful, more so than any other combination of classes. The reasons should be fairly obvious: the Kensai is a fighter which focusses solely on weapons and can't wear armour, and you can't cast spells in armour (with a few exceptions to be found in BG2: keep your eye out for them). Again, you're not trying to min/max, so you may well find the combination too powerful and find you eclipse the rest of your party to some extent. I'd suggest you just stick with the standard fighter, unless you want that kind of power.

Incidentally, I don't know if you did this intentionally or if it was just chance, but you happen to be playing with the so called "canon party": congratulations! BG2 behaves as if you played BG1 with those party members, so the beginning of BG2 will be consistent with your experiences in BG1, and won't hurt your immersion. In BG2, Imoen has dual classed to a mage at 7th level or so. If you want to keep her in the party, that's another reason that you may want to have a slightly different focus with your own fighter/mage. For this game, feel free to dual her or not as you see fit: she makes quite a good mage, but the dualling comes at an inconvenient time in my experience - just when thief skills become vital - so you may prefer to wait until BG2 and assume she was learning the secrets of magic behind the scenes from Dynaheir, and unlocked the abilities during the interim between BG1 and 2! Either way, unless you're playing with BGT (in which case, for plot purposes, you probably should dual class Imoen: her ability to use magic is relevent to the storyline), her statistics will be reset to how they start at the beginning of BG2 when you start: only your own character's stats are carried over.

EDIT: I think the message you're being given by us between us is: whether you dual or not, you'll still be pretty powerful, so just do whichever you prefer. If you do dual, though, do so at level 7, 10 or 13, and switch to kensai at BG2's start if you want more a cheesy way to get more power.
Post edited January 21, 2014 by pi4t
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pi4t: I think you'll also have a more in depth and - hopefully - enjoyable experience of the dual classing process if you aren't exploiting the rather cheesy tactics that Hickory mentioned (wait for the BG2 xp rise, then immediately start dualling).
How on earth is choosing to wait until BG2 to dual being cheesy? It's a legitimate strategy, and in no way can be considered 'cheesy'. :/

I'll also disagree with him about choosing Kensai. The Kensai/mage dual class is powerful - extremely powerful, more so than any other combination of classes.

If you do dual, though, do so at level 7, 10 or 13, and switch to kensai at BG2's start if you want more a cheesy way to get more power.
So you consider choosing a legitimate class as 'cheesy'? Very odd!
pi4t: Yes, I'm using EasyTutu.

Thanks for all the background on how dual-classing works. That answered some of my nuts and bolts questions concerning it.

You say my guy wouldn't be a good tank with his CON, but he's actually the guy with the most survivability in my line-up right now. That was another reason I was worried about dual'ing him.

Yes, the 18 INT is due to having planned to dual him from the start. But if I ever made a progression road-map I have lost it. I took a long break. (Due to various unrelated reasons, I do enjoy the game)

As for having the "canon" party, I suppose that just happened due to the fact those were the people the game pushed me to initially and that were mostly good aligned. Jaheira is not best pleased though. I have gotten to Heroic (20) reputation and she is unhappy. I don't know how to lower that without drastically lowering it. Killing an innocent lops off 10. And it's not something my character would do.

Hmmm, I see there is some disagreement with Hickory. Also Kmonster has a different perspective.

Well, I think I will get to 7 as fighter and then dual just to try it out for a bit. It will probably be too tough for me. But in any case I make saves at every level-up so I can just go back and resume as fighter if it all goes pear-shaped. ;)
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novanus: Jaheira is not best pleased though. I have gotten to Heroic (20) reputation and she is unhappy. I don't know how to lower that without drastically lowering it. Killing an innocent lops off 10. And it's not something my character would do.
Just ignore her - she complains anyway in the vanilla game (due to an oversight on the developer's part) - she won't leave the party though and you're better off with 20-rep.

As for dualling - give it a try. Personally, I'd wait til BG2 in this regard but you'll be able to complete BG1 if you dual now and do the tales of the sword coast content too. Dynaheir will be your main mage until you level up but you'll get some useful spells soon enough. Your HP won't go down but your Thac0 will hurt for a bit (and your AC - make use of the Armour spell and the other hard-to-hit-me buffs like Blur and mirror-image).

Once you get your fighter levels back, you'll be awesome (and by then you'll have the special-ability "Draw Upon Holy Might" for your PC - makes an even tougher fighter. And in BG2 you'll have access to spells like Stoneskin and Tenser's Transformation - making a powerful and hard to kill fighter.
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novanus: pi4t: Yes, I'm using EasyTutu.

Thanks for all the background on how dual-classing works. That answered some of my nuts and bolts questions concerning it.

You say my guy wouldn't be a good tank with his CON, but he's actually the guy with the most survivability in my line-up right now. That was another reason I was worried about dual'ing him.

Yes, the 18 INT is due to having planned to dual him from the start. But if I ever made a progression road-map I have lost it. I took a long break. (Due to various unrelated reasons, I do enjoy the game)

As for having the "canon" party, I suppose that just happened due to the fact those were the people the game pushed me to initially and that were mostly good aligned. Jaheira is not best pleased though. I have gotten to Heroic (20) reputation and she is unhappy. I don't know how to lower that without drastically lowering it. Killing an innocent lops off 10. And it's not something my character would do.

Hmmm, I see there is some disagreement with Hickory. Also Kmonster has a different perspective.

Well, I think I will get to 7 as fighter and then dual just to try it out for a bit. It will probably be too tough for me. But in any case I make saves at every level-up so I can just go back and resume as fighter if it all goes pear-shaped. ;)
To clarify: he'll still be a pretty good tank, but 16 Con will have given him +2 hp per level, while, say, 18 would have given him +4. If you take him up to level 10+ as a fighter, that will be 20hp less than he'd otherwise have had. On the other hand, he'll still be very good with 18/18 str and dex, and his Con is still perfectly good: it's rare indeed to find an NPC with a con of higher than 16.

I don't know how you've leveled them up, but Minsc and Khalid should be perfectly good for tanking purposes for the rest of BG1. Jahiera can also stand in in a pinch. Besides, since you retain your hp and your AC is determined by gear and stats, you'll still be just as good at tanking as you are now. You'll just have to rely on other party members to actually kill the creatures until you regain your abilities. Granted you'll stop gaining as much hp, but that would become more or less fixed by 10th level anyway (see below). I wouldn't worry about a lack of tanks if I were you: you have more than you need as is! Certain npcs in your current party aren't there in BG2, so you'll be redoing your party at that point anyway and can choose NPCs to fit better. I would recommend you pick up a pure cleric as one of the party members: Due to the higher amounts of hp involved, Jahiera's multiclass of druid (which in terms of healing, though not offence, is worse than cleric anyway) won't really be enough to efficiently heal everyone without lots of resting.

As I implied earlier, beyond level 10, your hp becomes more or less fixed: you gain only 1-3 hp per level, the precise number depending on your class.

If you want to, you can change Jahiera's alignment to neutral good, which could be argued to better reflect her personality. I think that'll change her to expressing satisfaction at the way the party is going, which in my opinion is more appropriate for her. You can't do that in game, but you can use a save editor called 'Shadowkeeper' to do it. Note that Shadowkeeper is the editor for BG2: I believe that that's what you need for Tutu plays, and Hickory will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure, but you might need the BG1 version, Sword Coast Keeper.

Either way, as Trollum says, you'll end up with a character who's more powerful than either a standard fighter or mage would be, who can both cast spells and fight (especially after self-buffing).Good luck with the dual classing! Out of curiosity, where are you in the game at the moment?


Hickory, the reason I considered waiting for BG2 cheesy is that it's making use of game mechanics which don't make sense within the context of the setting (there's no plot based reason why your character suddenly learns so much more from copying a scroll, is there?), so it's using metagaming knowledge to gain an advantage which doesn't make sense in character. The Kensai/Mage is simply something which I'd consider 'too' powerful compared to other classes (AFAIK, there aren't any other single classes, multi classes, or dual classes with any kit choices which are near to that power). Personally, I'd consider deliberately seeking out and playing the best class combination in a game with so many options to be rather min-maxy, yes. Still, each to his own, and if you consider those things to be acceptable strategies, then don't let me stop you :)

For now, can we agree to disagree on this matter rather than diverting the thread?
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novanus: Here is what I have so far:

Human Fighter level 6 with 47,935 exp

STR 18/49
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 6
CHA 8

72 HP

Long Sword +++
Long Bow ++
Single Weapon Style +

My party consists of Imoen, Khalid, Minsc, Jaheira and Dynaheir.
I am not concerned with being min/maxed to perfection, I just don't want to be gimped.

Thanks for any advice!
I just saw above the not too concerned with min/maxed to perfection. A year or so ago, Hickory explained to me how to min/max and for four points or either WIS or CHA you could have had 18 DEX and 18 CON. I rolled a character with 18/HI STR 18 DEX 18 CON 17 INT 18 WIS 3 CHA. That takes a good while to roll - somebody here also explained how the mechanics of rolling work and I can link that if you are interested. You did take time to roll 72hp for your character.

Otherwise I agree with the advice to wait until BG2. I was going to say if you wait until BG2, you can choose a kit for your Fighter, but you are playing a mod, not vanilla BG1.
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pi4t: Hickory, the reason I considered waiting for BG2 cheesy is that it's making use of game mechanics which don't make sense within the context of the setting (there's no plot based reason why your character suddenly learns so much more from copying a scroll, is there?), so it's using metagaming knowledge to gain an advantage which doesn't make sense in character.
There is also no plot based reason why a character should transition from being a pure fighter into a character that can only cast spells -- that argument doesn't hold any merit whatsoever. Moreover, you are providing massive amounts of meta gaming knowledge to the OP with your advice, so that argument similarly lacks any merit.


The Kensai/Mage is simply something which I'd consider 'too' powerful compared to other classes (AFAIK, there aren't any other single classes, multi classes, or dual classes with any kit choices which are near to that power). Personally, I'd consider deliberately seeking out and playing the best class combination in a game with so many options to be rather min-maxy, yes. Still, each to his own, and if you consider those things to be acceptable strategies, then don't let me stop you :)
It is a class designed and created by the developers. It is as simple as that. To say that it is cheesy is to say that X or Y classes are potentially also cheesy. It doesn't make sense.

For now, can we agree to disagree on this matter rather than diverting the thread?
I didn't divert it, you did. But I agree.
Hint: Wands work wonders for a low level character and they are cheap.
pi4t: I think I'll deal with Jaheira's whining. I'm a little paranoid about editing the save file unless I have to due to a bug that prevents me from progressing. But thanks for the tip.

I'm on Chapter Five by the way, just before speaking to the Duke about the Iron Throne. I am trying to tidy up some loose sidequests before that in case those close off.

KHHill91: Good point, I guess I could have allocated those points better! It really shows though that, like I said, I'm just not a D&D expert. It was painful enough to have my WIS and CHA where they are. I know CHA is considered a dump stat, but I'm one of "those" people that like to role-play a bit rather than just "roll"-play.

ussnorway: Ahh yes, being the pack-rat that I am have quite a collection of those already. I keep waiting for some terrible fight where I will exhaust my spellbook and be forced to use wands and scrolls. ;)

Anyway, thanks everyone for your input, I appreciate all the replies. I see there are good reasons for and against dual'ing.
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pi4t: AFAIK, there aren't any other single classes, multi classes, or dual classes with any kit choices which are near to that power
Sorry to bring back the same subject up, but WTF is this kensai/mage hate I see so often? The only defining advantage of that combination is that a disadvantage of the base class (no armor allowed) is shared with the 2nd class too. Is that really skyrocketing its power that can't be compared to ANYTHING else the game has to offer?

I'd argue that a berzerker/mage is a stronger combo since that crazy overpowered rage gives undispellable immunities to pretty much anything that matters vs strong enemies. Plus you can wear bracers. And helmets. And hold a shield. How is the... +3 damage/attack and the can't-wear-armor-but-that's-ok SO much better that is almost akin to cheating? Or is it simply cool to hate the popular, just because popular=bad?

Kensage is popular mainly due to its concept. At least for me that is its appeal. It's a strong combo, no doubt, but not the strongest. Is it overpowered? In the base game most of the classes/kits are. Once you learn the game a bit, it's very easy to steamroll your way to the end.

Rant over.