THIS POST CONTAINS POTENTIAL BG AND IWD SPOILERS!!!!

I forgot all about that in IWD actually. I remember killing him once and thinking "well that was pointless" and just reloaded. Never bothered looking at the reputation meter so thanks for pointing that out. Every time I get to that part in the game, I just ignore him now.

I think I griped about the reputation system in another thread somewhere and how intrusive it really was. In order to stop non good characters from leaving, you had to lower your repuation and because of the way the game was designed, you had to do something stupid like kill some random commoner in his house. The part in BG2:TOB where you free the prisoners and get +1 rep for each prisoner released would have been a logistical nightmare if it wasn't for the slayer ability (which I made liberal use of BTW). I did this in order to stop Korgan and Viconia getting pissy. When Viconia mentions "I'm beginning to tire of spending my time with fools", I thinking, yeah okay, you think I'm an idiot so in order for you think I'm smart I have to do...........something stupid and pointless like kill a random commoner? How logical of you Viccy.

Also you mentioned that even if you did this out of the sight of anyone (barring party members) but everyone knows you did the crime hence the repuation loss. This makes me wonder what the point of repution is. I think you mentioned somewhere that you did PnP roleplaying (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me). I know BG uses PnP rules but it seems what works in the PnP medium doesn't always work in the digital medium (underpowered spells also comes readily to mind). Does reputation actually serve any purpose in PnP? Cos from what I've seen in BG, it's just another artificial system to coerce you into being the altruistic do gooder type.

You mentioned evil doesn't have to be stupid and I totally agree. The drow in IWD2 where a great example of smart evil by getting the PCs aid. First you were tricked into going into the underdark because why bother exhausting resources dealing with a drider problem yourself when you can get a band of expendable adventurers to do the job for you? Then when you get to the Severed Hand, you meet a drow merchant who is interested in helping you stopping the Legion of the Chimera, but not because of good intentions. When asked about why the drow aren't taking a more active role in stopping the Legion of the Chimera, the drow replies something to to effect of "Why bother? You're already doing it. It's simply more efficient for us to assist you" and he was right. Not only do the drow not waste resources fighting the Legion, they also stay under the radar avoiding direct conflict with them and they also profit from selling you equipment rather than expending it themselves on a war effort. I can't recall anything like this happening in BG1 or 2 though I suppose the Shadow Thieves in BG2 comes closest. IWD2s drow where smart in getting the PC to do their dirty work from them, compare that with Bodhi's blunt "join me or I'll kill you" dialog *sigh*.

It would be nicer if more devs followed suit and make villians with an actual motive and depth. "I'm evil for the lulz" type of villians, for me, really destroys the imersion of the game, especially story driven ones. Belifet in IWD wasn't a stellar villian by any stretch but in action oriented games, I tend to look past them, after all, I'm playing the game for the action. But for actual story driven games, I just find it annoying. Oddly enough, one my my favorite villians of all time, SHODAN from System Shock, fits right under this category.

Must be the internal conflict between trying to be an overly compasionate yet snobbish noble at the same time :).

Heh heh, I didn't forget that. I remember my first playthrough of BG1 and seeing those dialog options after walking out the aera with the wouldbe assassin and thinking "Who the hell would say this crap?". If an assassination attempt was made on me, I would want to know who and why and I would definately alert of the candlekeep guards of potential assassins within the walls but considering the stupidity other characters have in BG, it's probably fitting. If I went though BG1 and 2 and posted screenies of all the bad dialog in the games, GoG would probably give me an infraction for spamming the forums. There's just too much bad dialog in the 2 games. The original Neverwinter Nights campaign wasn't a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination and the dialog was pretty bland and formulatic throughout, but hell, at least there was balance.

The only time dialog surprised me in a good way was in IWD2s fight at the Shaenguard bridge. The first time I played that part, I tried talking with that mage because in these kinds of situations, thats what the devs expect you to do. However, the dialog was just a distraction to keep you from the ogres destroying the bridge. The devs suckered me there ;)

All the devs really needed to do to make dialog better was realize there are not only 2 types of people in a DnD setting. Doing something for someone else doesn't mean you are good and expecting getting paid for your work, doesn't make you an assole. I really get sick of seeing "Sure, I'll help you ........for a price". Next time I play though BG, I'm going to count how many time "I'll help you........for a price" comes up in the dialog. Seriously, if you expect to get paid for putting your neck on the line, you don't have to be an arse about it. How about a dialog option like this "Your farmland is being raided by gnolls hmmm? I've dealt with gnolls before, if you need my assistance in dealing with them, I'm available for hire". But noooooooo, the devs think we should all be do gooders and the quest giver will shower the PC with riches and XP anyways. I liked that line from Deitrich in Warhammer; Shadow of the Horned Rat. "Ale and a sore head do not pay the innkeeper" when the dwarves try and avoid paying your party. If an NPC wants me to do a job for free, I would love to have a dialog option along those lines.

Funny thing is, in my first playthrough of BG 1 and 2, I never wanted it to end, I was actually disappointed and maybe a little sad that the adventure was over. 10 odd years later, I play the game again and the flaws were so glaring, it made me wonder how I missed them the first time around. Maybe it was because I played a good character back then but when playing as a non good character, the flaws were apparent. I think you may have touched on why BG leaves a few things to be desired. First, I still like BG but not to the extent of IWD and PS:T. I really liked PS:T for the story and the action never got in the way of the story. I also really liked IWD for the action and the story never got in the way of the action. BG tried to meet halfway in between but didn't succeed for the reasons you mentioned above (though I would add a few more myself).

Another glaring flaw in BG was the rock, paper, scissors combat. I already griped about BG2 mage fights were a breachfest. With a lot of rediculously overpowered spells (imprision anyone?) that could get you stomped, hard counters to those abilities made the same fights all too easy, it was just a matter of getting the right counter. IWD was more flexible on how you handled your fights whereas in BG, it was mostly using overpowered counters against overpowered spells. I beat irenicus using the firetooth crossbow and using hit and run tactics. Taking down the big bad this way was really lame and cheesy. I never got hit once :(

I remember you saying in a previous post that you really liked PS:T but you didn't like IWD or BG (once again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I'm just a bit surprised to see you say IWD was a better game than BG when you didn't like either.

That's true, I don't think much of either. Both those games and PST suffer immensely from the way the Infinity Engine handles combat; it's not as bad with PST due to combat being more sparse, the implementation of a run function to balance out the few times the AI goes dodgy, and the near total absence of the tight corridors that is to IE pathfinding what an entire Bag of Holding crammed full of holy water is to an undead, but BG and IWD take great hits due to being so combat heavy. That said, between the two, I think IWD is relatively better than BG, even if I have more than a few bugbears about it.

Funnily enough, I remember saying that I preferred BG over IWD at one point because it tried to incorporate RP and story focus while IWD was more focused on combat; a later attempt to play through BG really brought home just how half-assed the RP was and how the story was all but requiring being put on hold at every turn for the sake of endless sidequests involving wandering around and killing everything in our way to get "phat lootz. The ways that BG tried to (and failed) define itself as anything other than a glorified combat game ultimately got under my skin more the second time around than my initial frustration with IWD's open and honest combat focus; neither might exactly stoke my fires all that much, but I give props to the one that knew what it was and didn't try to be anything else.

Fun fact: "reputation" doesn't exist in PnP. At all.

Now, there are certain things that affect how people react to you, like charisma, your reaction rolls if the DM is using them (based on charisma and modified by various things about your character and who you are talking to; for example, a 2E Barbarian gets bonuses on the roll when talking to members of a friendly tribe, but penalties when dealing with virtually everyone else, iirc), and, you know, how you have been treating any given NPC. There is no great karma meter in the sky that tells people how they should treat you based on that one time you went adventuring without underpants or anything else they couldn't possibly have known about.

Now, reputation might be trying to simulate the difficulty of having characters with conflicting ideals in the same party; the problem, aside from revolving around a questionable premise that acts are Good or Evil in and of themselves regardless of intent, is that it leads to ridiculous results like you outlined. If I were to have my Bandit shank a random civilian in a PnP game, the Evil party members would be in a hurry to get rid of me out of a fear that I have become mentally unstable; they sure as hell wouldn't be going "oh, thank christ, we thought you were some kind of insufferable ponce".

- I would not call any game with the infinity engine an action-RPG. Combat is rather slow and tactical, so this rock/paper/scissors thing makes sense to me. IWD is more combat focused than BG. But under "action" I understand something that requires reaction speed and precise controls.

By the way: My "reaction speed and precise controls" are not very good, so I like classical RPGs or adventures much more than any action game.

- I agree that the reputation system is crap.
Whats better? Something like NWN or PST, where your actions change your alignment? So "I help you because I´m so nice" is good, "I help you, but for a price" is neutral and "Thanks for the info, and now I kill you and take the reward plus everything else you have" is bad.

I like the Gothic game. Everyone (maybe except your best friend) wants some kind of payment, and if you do something others don´t like, they try to beat you and steal your things while you lay on the ground. There are guards, but if you pay them they help you beating others, else they just watch the fight and take their payment from the loser.
But this is a world full of prisoners so this system doesn´t work in a more "normal" environment.

What I felt that really sends Icewind Dale in heaven was the incredible feeling of exploring History-filled locations. And often majestic places. You really wandered in wilderness once partially-tames, once inhabited by powerful people that build huge and magnificent architectures - often lost in Time (not to mention lost to anyone else ^^). Baldur's Gate offered a passionate glance at civilization in a realistic environment - and I loved that game - but Icewind Dale is just pure joy to discover, and a pleasure to come back to it everytime.

I loved the items, their story, the combat tactics, the Story (although simple)...

And on a sidenote, I think some of you are a bit harsh towards BG ^^" I played that game for the first time the day it came out, and I vividly remember how thrilled I was. The game has its flaws, but come one... for years, it was (were, BG2 included) one of the best games ever =P It offered so much, it changed so much. That can't be slapped aside like that !

LOL. I've been playing BG and the other Infinity Engine gmes for 15 years now.

I'm actually keeping my current computer to play old games on, and if my next one, which will probably run Windows 8.x runs the games as well, I'll keep that computer too. That's why I love GOG.com: I can just re-image a computer in 2047 if I want to, keep it disconnected from the internet, and then play all old games :)

And yes, I actually intend to have a working copy of the BG-type games somewere around 2030 or so, be it on an old computer, or in a Windows XP (or 98...) virtual machine. I've got everything backed up already.

Totally agree with you! Have the same approach to keeping an older system running just for these gems! I do have a special place in my heart for the original Icewind Dale too-it broke from the narrative laden BG and replaced it with a combat-heavy overlay of known Forgotten Realms locales. I was largely unacquainted with the lore of FR and D&D until BG2, and by then I came to recognise and appreciate the level of design that went into what I originally thought a much more shallow game. (Wow-long sentence!)
Shane

I actually prefer Baldur's Gate over Icewind Dale :O Don't get me wrong, Icewind Dale is an excellent game, but BG has a better story, better soundtrack, nice ambience, and so on. It also takes a while longer to complete. If there is a thing IWD is better at, it could be dungeon design, it has some very nice dungeons that has a lot of detail and size.

What I especially love about Icewind Dale, is the 100% voice-over.

Agreed, yet despite that for some reason I find myself going back to IWD much more often than BG (although I love both games).

Exactly, there's nothing important to add to that observation. Icewind Dale was a very unambitious project. The art was off, the game was shallow and just wasn't interesting.

So yeah, Baldur's Gate ten times better than Icewind Dale (in that I've played through Baldur's Gate probably ten times in my life and only once through Icewind Dale)

Yet people have stated they couldn't get into Icewind dale because their entire party got ROFLstomped in the vale of shadows. Baldur's Gate 1 had the same issue as a level 1 character is just a little too squishy for the early game. With your PC starting at level 6-7 and a 4 character party after leaving Irenicus' insipid hole in the ground, I would say Baldur's Gate 2 is the easiest to get into.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say BG requires more commitment. On a fundemental level, BG (mostly BG2) isn't much different from IWD. A lot of BG2 was just filler side quests to get XP and, to quote Jonesy89, "phat loot" (is this what you meant by searching and wandering BTW?). In IWD, that was essentially the whole game and didn't try to be anything else. The difference was in BG2 you could choose what order to do them in or skip them (not a good idea unless you like being underleveled) but in IWD, progression was linear. Wether you like choosing the order to do the sidequests or having them layed out in a linear manner is really up to player preference, at the end of the day, you'll still be doing them all anyway. Apples and oranges and all that.

There was more dialog in BG, true, but it was so horrendously bad at times, I wouldn't call it a strong point. One of the many reasons I thought IWD was better was because there was a lot less dialog. If the dialog in BG was PS:T quality then you would have a point but as it is, the dialog is better in IWD because there's less of it. See the screenies I posted earlier in this topic? You can't call that quality writing and BG is filled with that kinda crap.

I played through BG (both games) 3 times each, IWD1 maybe around 10 times now and IWD2 5-6 times. I love all the games but BG's faults (especially with dialog) are hard to overlook.

Oh yes. The wandering was especially with regards to BG1, where most of the life-saving gear you need to ensure that the odds of non of the party getting curb-stomped is located out in the middle of the bloody wilderness or in "optional" dungeons. You *could* always try to save up for some of the magic gear in Beregost to get an advantage early on, but good luck acquiring that much money without engaging in tougher battles while underequipped. There was still plenty of wandering in BG2, but most of it was as a result of all the sidequests that I kept tripping over and getting involved in as I tried to solve the previous one.

While BG1 was designed by a DM who was visibly barely keeping themselves under control to try and pretend they were interested in the plot until they got a chance to gush about its various extra dungeons and loot, things seemed to somehow get better and worse with BG2 based on my initial observations. Ok, the game still had an unhealthy loot obsession, but at least you got a good amount early on naturally through sidequests (either as reward or going places that you had an actual reason to go beyond "OMG, ph4t lootz, guys!"), as opposed to BG1's approach of the DM going "yeah, yeah, whatever, plot to destabilize the Realms, blahblahblah, HEY, who's up for delving into a random dungeon? It's not like there's anything important going on that requires your urgent attention, lol." Not exactly the best improvement possible, but I can at least appreciate baby steps in the right direction being taken.

And yet, if BG2 were a DM, I would have smacked them. Hard. Remember how I said that BG2 had gotten worse with its loot obsession in certain respects? This is what I was referring to; I might have referred to it elsewhere, but hell if I know where. I made the mistake of going into the high end weapon shop early on, and upon browsing their goods, saw that there was a lot of loot from Sigil. Plansecape is many things, but as a setting, it is defined by not letting itself be caught dead mired in traditional D&D tropes, and few things are more traditional in bog standard D&D than masturbating over loot. I initially managed to reign in the nerd rage; after all, it might be contrary to the tone and general concept of the setting, but now that the game is acknowledging the Planes exist and is having aspects of it bleed over into the Realms, maybe this is a sign of the Planes playing a larger role in the plot, thereby making it more tolerable, or at the very least by having minor cameos or nods to characters from PST or the general setting. Lord knows that a dose of Gaiman-esque Planescape would be a welcome breath of fresh air in the Forgotten Realms, and having passing mention being given of whether Dak'kon had rebuilt his city or how Morte had been spending time in the Cage would have been the next best thing.

And that's when I saw it. Dak'kon's Zerth blade was on sale, as was Vhailor's helm. BG2 had killed them off, not so that their death would make for any kind of interesting story of their lives after the events of PST, as all the descriptions had to say about either of them was that they had died while working for TNO. The only reason that they had been killed off was to serve as yet another source of loot for the game to drool over; nevermind that a karach blade vanishes when the one who wields it dies, the game took one look at interesting characters and decided that all that was interesting about them was the gear they were wearing and thinking "OMG, ph4t lootz, guys!". The game not only had no interest in the stories of these characters, it actively thought that those stories, which dealt with Dak'kon's crisis of faith that led to a slaughter of the people he had a duty to protect and his road to redemption and Vhailor's relentless quest for justice and the consequences of his obsession, were worthless. A game whose plot, while improved from BG1, still couldn't be bothered to flesh out the party as supporting characters, took one look at two characters who were well developed and related to the main conflict of the protagonist thematically, and promptly ignored all but the shallowest aspects of their characters, their gear. As a DM, that level of disrespect for story in favor of loot pissed me off.