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Age of Wonders seriesAoW 3 - Not really DRM free?(304 posts)(304 posts)
(304 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 11, 2014
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vrmlbasic: Now I'm really glad that I didn't buy this one. Even though they fixed it, the fact that they even allowed this to happen is something that I find appalling. After all these years I would have thought that GOG had spread the message that no DRM = sales but this former scheme of this game's devs makes the case that GOG was drowned out by the likes of Blizzard and EA :(
Don't you think, that you're overreacting a bit? Sure, it was annoying to not be able to save your settings, but it was hardly the end of the (DRM-free) world. Nevermind a scheme by the devs.
Posted April 11, 2014
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vrmlbasic: Now I'm really glad that I didn't buy this one. Even though they fixed it, the fact that they even allowed this to happen is something that I find appalling. After all these years I would have thought that GOG had spread the message that no DRM = sales but this former scheme of this game's devs makes the case that GOG was drowned out by the likes of Blizzard and EA :(
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Gaunathor: Don't you think, that you're overreacting a bit? Sure, it was annoying to not be able to save your settings, but it was hardly the end of the (DRM-free) world. Nevermind a scheme by the devs.
"Annoying" not to be able to save your settings? Are you serious?
Posted April 11, 2014
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Gaunathor: Don't you think, that you're overreacting a bit? Sure, it was annoying to not be able to save your settings, but it was hardly the end of the (DRM-free) world. Nevermind a scheme by the devs.
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realkman666: "Annoying" not to be able to save your settings? Are you serious?
It was a bug and it's been fixed. Done.
Posted April 11, 2014
What are we talking about now?
Posted April 11, 2014
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BlaneckW: What are we talking about now?
That saving game settings is now behind a DRM wall until people complain.
Posted April 11, 2014
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Senteria: And yeah, for multiplayer you need an internet connections. Surprising? No. It does not even take longer than 1 minute to make an account and use your key to unlock multiplayer
way to use a strawman and completely ignore every argument ever made by the other side.

1. You do not actually need an internet connection for LAN. Except the DRM forces you to.
2. The issue isn't that an internet connection is required for online play, but that a server existing online is required. The internet is going to be around in 10 years. That server is not.
Posted April 11, 2014
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realkman666: "Annoying" not to be able to save your settings? Are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. Are you telling me, that you wouldn't be annoyed by such a bug? I only had to change one setting every time I started to play, so it wasn't that bad for me. If it had been more, then I probably would have been pretty pissed about it.

In any case though, the bug is fixed now. So there isn't anymore to argue about it.
Posted April 11, 2014
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BKGaming: Yes... the difference is those systems control the digital software which is what DRM is. This is not the same thing, the digital software is not being controlled or restricted at all here, your access to the server is which you're not entitled to anyway.
1. You are dishonestly pretending that the DRM server is the online play server, just lumping them together as "servers" even though they are two completely different things
The online authentication is an extra (unnecessary) layer that is required not only on their servers, but even if you are hosting your own on a lan.
2. Paying money for a game, does in fact entitle me to it.
3. If I don't want to use their server (or it is gone due to being shut down), I am locked out of online play. For example, lan play where I host my own server on my local network and connect to it via local network. Even though the game code exists and is perfectly able to let me play multiplayer without their DRM server, the lack of DRM server authentication PREVENTS me from doing so because there is special code in the game which exist for the sole purpose of doing that

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AstralWanderer: CD-keys are not in themselves DRM if they aren't subject to remote validation (many games only check keys locally against a known blacklist of warez keys) and given that NWN has been quoted as an example, its keys don't qualify as DRM since it is possible (and indeed now necessary) to connect via alternative servers as detailed in the Discontinued Gamespy support sticky.
keys are DRM.
However the NWN keys are an exception because they are a relic of a DRM system that has been removed from the game with a minimal amount of effort.

The keys originally served to check the authenticity of your game. This has been "disabled" by creating a universal gog key file that works with any system.

For the DLCs the game used to connect to an online server for verification every time you started it or loaded a save file. A CD version of some of the DLC was released (before GOG) which removed that authentication by making a local server emulator that will automatically accept whatever keys were in the key file when the DLC was installed. These DLCs have been packaged with GOG with the same limitation, while DLCs that never had that treatment are simply unavailable (although, some time ago the online verification server went down when EA was hacked and came back a few months later where it now sends a verified signal for any DLC that checks even if you don't own it).

TL:DR - single player used to be DRMed but the DRM was removed in a somewhat sloppy fashion, the end result is that you don't see any DRM as it has been crippled to not go online and just instant approve offline. Or in some cases removed outright

Now, for multiplayer, there was never a master server, what they had was a "master LIST server". A server whose sole job was to list of all available servers. each actual server is ran at home by a home user, no servers were ever ran by bioware. Those servers do not have a username/password authentication, instead they tie your account on that server to your cdkeys. if you steal someone keys you steal their account on all online servers.
instead of redesigning the server software to take a username and password (which would make gog servers incompatible with those who own the steam or CD version), they opted to leave it in.
So in this extremely rare case, CD keys are used not to verify ownership or DRM, but as a username/password combo for user ran servers for legacy and backwards compatibility reasons.

The issue with NWN then isn't that it has DRM, but that it isn't the definitive version of the game. Some DLC is simply not available through GOG. But is available to those who bought it on the bioware online store back in the day before EA stopped selling them.
Although interestingly you can still install the shareware version of those (available for download on bioware forums) and it would work as the full version due to the changes they have made to their online verification servers
Post edited April 11, 2014 by taltamir
Posted April 11, 2014
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vrmlbasic: Now I'm really glad that I didn't buy this one. Even though they fixed it, the fact that they even allowed this to happen is something that I find appalling. After all these years I would have thought that GOG had spread the message that no DRM = sales but this former scheme of this game's devs makes the case that GOG was drowned out by the likes of Blizzard and EA :(
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Gaunathor: Don't you think, that you're overreacting a bit? Sure, it was annoying to not be able to save your settings, but it was hardly the end of the (DRM-free) world. Nevermind a scheme by the devs.
Not a bit as what the devs did on AOW3 was worse than what Valve has done with Steam. If I can't connect to Steam and can get into offline mode (not always a surefire thing, granted...) then I can at least save my changes.

Forcing online connectivity to facilitate functionality that does not require the internet in any way is inexcusable.

These devs made a game that is antithetical to the purported mission of GOG and in having it here they're poking a stick in GOG's eye :(
Posted April 11, 2014
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realkman666: "Annoying" not to be able to save your settings? Are you serious?
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Gaunathor: Yes, I'm serious. Are you telling me, that you wouldn't be annoyed by such a bug? I only had to change one setting every time I started to play, so it wasn't that bad for me. If it had been more, then I probably would have been pretty pissed about it.

In any case though, the bug is fixed now. So there isn't anymore to argue about it.
I think it's way more than annoying to require phoning home to retrieve game settings.
Posted April 11, 2014
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AstralWanderer: CD-keys are not in themselves DRM if they aren't subject to remote validation...
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taltamir: keys are DRM.
However the NWN keys are an exception because they are a relic of a DRM system that has been removed from the game with a minimal amount of effort.
To qualify as DRM in my eyes, a system has to involve remote verification. If a CD key or registration key is only checked by the program itself (without using an outside server) then as long as you keep details of that key/code safe, you need never fear losing access to the program. If remote verification is involved, you can lose access due to events outside your control (server closure, outage, Internet connection issues, etc).

So while I can see a technical argument for describing keys/serials as DRM, I think it is unhelpful and confusing to many to list them as such, unless they are implemented in a way that relies on remote verification.
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taltamir: For the DLCs the game used to connect to an online server for verification every time you started it or loaded a save file. A CD version of some of the DLC was released (before GOG) which removed that authentication by making a local server emulator that will automatically accept whatever keys were in the key file when the DLC was installed.
NWN DLCs are a different topic - definitely DRMed in my eyes. However the GOG versions of NWN1 DLC do not initiate network traffic (or open any ports, even via localhost) so the "server emulation" description may be technically inaccurate.
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taltamir: ...Some DLC is simply not available through GOG... Although interestingly you can still install the shareware version of those (available for download on bioware forums) and it would work as the full version...
The non-GOG NWN1 DLC still needs to connect to Bioware's server (they hang indefinitely if started offline) but it now approves everything. So a worst case DRM scenario - no prevention of unauthorised use but all the downsides of remote validation. Thank you Bioware. :(
Posted April 12, 2014
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vrmlbasic: Forcing online connectivity to facilitate functionality that does not require the internet in any way is inexcusable.
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realkman666: I think it's way more than annoying to require phoning home to retrieve game settings.
Okay, let's make that clear. When I was installing the game, I was offline. When I was playing the game, I was still offline. Singleplayer, saving the game, the DLC scenarios, they all worked fine. Only saving the game settings didn't work at all. So, how does that equate to "forcing online connectivity" or "phoning home to retrieve game settings"? How is the latter even possible? You can't retrieve game settings from somewhere, when none have been sent to begin with.

If you really believe, that this was an intentional scheme by the devs to force always-on DRM on singleplayer, don't you think they would have been a little more straightforward? Like storing both your savegames and your game settings on their servers, for example. Also, if they did something like that, the backlash would be huge. The devs already got flack just because saving the game settings didn't work, as both of you perfectly demonstrate. If the devs really pulled something like you two seem to believe, then people would boycott them for life. Well, at least I would.

The only reasonable explanation for this is, that it was a bug. I have no idea how Triumph's QA, or their Beta testing, worked, so I don't know how this bug got passed them. However, I'm not really surprised. In my years of gaming, I've seen plenty of obvious bugs make it into the final game. Heck, I've spent the last six years working on a mod to fix such bugs in one of my favourite games, GalCiv 2. Granted, none of those were as severe as this one, but they still all fall into the same category: obvious bugs that should never have made it past QA, but for some reason did. Calling them an intentional scheme by the devs is simply disingenuous, if not downright delusional.
Posted April 12, 2014
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realkman666: I think it's way more than annoying to require phoning home to retrieve game settings.
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Gaunathor: Okay, let's make that clear. When I was installing the game, I was offline. When I was playing the game, I was still offline. Singleplayer, saving the game, the DLC scenarios, they all worked fine. Only saving the game settings didn't work at all. So, how does that equate to "forcing online connectivity" or "phoning home to retrieve game settings"? How is the latter even possible? You can't retrieve game settings from somewhere, when none have been sent to begin with.

If you really believe, that this was an intentional scheme by the devs to force always-on DRM on singleplayer, don't you think they would have been a little more straightforward? Like storing both your savegames and your game settings on their servers, for example. Also, if they did something like that, the backlash would be huge. The devs already got flack just because saving the game settings didn't work, as both of you perfectly demonstrate. If the devs really pulled something like you two seem to believe, then people would boycott them for life. Well, at least I would.

The only reasonable explanation for this is, that it was a bug. I have no idea how Triumph's QA, or their Beta testing, worked, so I don't know how this bug got passed them. However, I'm not really surprised. In my years of gaming, I've seen plenty of obvious bugs make it into the final game. Heck, I've spent the last six years working on a mod to fix such bugs in one of my favourite games, GalCiv 2. Granted, none of those were as severe as this one, but they still all fall into the same category: obvious bugs that should never have made it past QA, but for some reason did. Calling them an intentional scheme by the devs is simply disingenuous, if not downright delusional.
I don't think they're evil or anything, because obviously some features are hard to test, but I'm still suspicious. Whether it's shady or just a bug, I don't claim to know. It falls in line with wanting to control the use of the software, but that's no proof.

Takedown has similar problems to this day, I believe. I blame it on the team's inexperience with Steam and cloud BS, but I don't know about the AOW guys.
Posted April 12, 2014
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BKGaming: Yes... the difference is those systems control the digital software which is what DRM is. This is not the same thing, the digital software is not being controlled or restricted at all here, your access to the server is which you're not entitled to anyway.
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taltamir: 1. You are dishonestly pretending that the DRM server is the online play server, just lumping them together as "servers" even though they are two completely different things
The online authentication is an extra (unnecessary) layer that is required not only on their servers, but even if you are hosting your own on a lan.
2. Paying money for a game, does in fact entitle me to it.
3. If I don't want to use their server (or it is gone due to being shut down), I am locked out of online play. For example, lan play where I host my own server on my local network and connect to it via local network. Even though the game code exists and is perfectly able to let me play multiplayer without their DRM server, the lack of DRM server authentication PREVENTS me from doing so because there is special code in the game which exist for the sole purpose of doing that
1. Erm.. not lumping anything to together. One requires a game to check against it to function (steam) which is drm... the other uses a server to connect you with people (mutliplayer) which there free to discontinue at anytime.

2. You entitled to the game yes... which means single player.

3. LAN was not designed in the game so it doesn't prevent anything... complain to the devs. Doesn't make it suddenly DRM.

If I make a game and put all the functions needed in the game to build a house so I can design the house in game but only allow you the player to buy the house... is my game now suddenly crap because the functions are there behind the scenes to build a house but I didn't design the game to work that way? Isn't this my choice as the game designer?

The harsh reality is DRM was simple back in the day, today there are so many more things that games connect to... it's not so clear as it was back then before mutliplayer became so popular, cloud computing and cloud gaming. Now whatever we don't like we complain as DRM.
Post edited April 12, 2014 by BKGaming
Posted April 13, 2014
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taltamir: keys are DRM.
However the NWN keys are an exception because they are a relic of a DRM system that has been removed from the game with a minimal amount of effort.
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AstralWanderer: To qualify as DRM in my eyes, a system has to involve remote verification. If a CD key or registration key is only checked by the program itself (without using an outside server) then as long as you keep details of that key/code safe, you need never fear losing access to the program. If remote verification is involved, you can lose access due to events outside your control (server closure, outage, Internet connection issues, etc).
So you are... agreeing with me?

It is still drm if the verification is done offline, its just not intolerable DRM because the offline verification will continue to work for years to come (probably, unless it is incompatible with a future OS version). It is certainly preferable to have offline verification than online verification.

That all being said. NWN keys USED to be online verification, but that has been removed for the gog version. The DRM system has been gutted, but not 100% purged, and as such the keys remain as a relic of an ex DRM system that has been gutted
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Age of Wonders seriesAoW 3 - Not really DRM free?(304 posts)(304 posts)
(304 posts)