As far as I can recall everything you wrote was "irrelevant to ... if this is DRM". You keep repeating "It's a service! It's a service!" as if that has any bearing on whether or not it is DRM. Using your false dichotomy of "if service, can't be DRM", a purely single-player game that requires an internet connection so it can phone home and verify that your key is valid and isn't in use and hasn't been blacklisted and does this every time you hit "next turn" is not DRM. After all, the game is just making use of the "DRM service", er, the "Validate my key and let me play my game service" on the publisher's servers. And when the publisher's servers go dark and no one can play the game anymore, it's (according to your logic) still not DRM. Under your definition, server-based DRM is simply impossible. So all publishers have to do is make sure all of their DRM (sorry, "key validation") is server-based, and by your definition the whole world will be DRM-free. GOG will be able to sell all their games as "DRM free". That shows that your definition is worthless. Whether or not something is DRM isn't about the specific mechanics of control, it's about the control. If publishers achieve the same level of control by technologically different means, its "DRM-ness" hasn't changed one iota.

The license isn't indefinite in most cases but the important point, you wrote yourself, is...
i need the "service" of a thrid party to keep all the content i bought(rented) functional=DRM

Aside from this...anything i could/would wrote was allready stated, esp. by JadeOne.

Just one example...if i buy a car at my country...i buy some service together with the car..the warranty of free repairs for some time for example..if it would be the way you describe "service"...
They would deliver a broken car to me...let's say with a engine that is electronical locked
and everytime i plan to drive my car, i would be forced to call the car dealer, explain that i plan to use the car and he would send me someone with a limited, electronical key that allows me to unlock the engine for some time...

I would need additional time and energy everytime i wan't to make use of something i paid the full price for, i would be controlled and restricted, i may be forced to suffer behavior i would never stand in a different situation...but hey...the car dealer and his servants have the electronical key...i need their good will..and..if the car dealer makes some faults and goes to insolvency or is just tired and closes his doors...i will pay for this too because i can't use my car anymore...so...

The way you describe service...it's only a other words for chain&whip...and the only one who can take advantage of this kind of service is the one who holds the whip...and thats not us

U'm no you're completely wrong and twisting what I said. I am specifically talking about multiplayer. If single player phoned home or required a key then this would be DRM. Do you not understand the difference?

In multiplayer they are providing you a server that provides matchmaking, high scores and other online features... this is a service they provide to you for buying the game for free. They can discontinue this service at anytime or make you subscribe to it.

Singleplayer is not a service... at all. There is nothing in single player that needs the internet to function and there is no service they are providing you therefor to restrict or control access would be DRM.

Please pay attention and stop trying to twist what was said to fit your argument. You trying to prove this is true because this is how you feel about it. I'm using our legal rights as gamers and how this is described using the Terms of Service we all agree to. Calling a game that provides us a service on top (which is what is) DRM because they ask you to subscribe when your not entitled to it anyway is crazy.

Please show me a TOS where the licence is not indefinite? Of every game I own the only way a license is not indefinite is if you break the licence agreement... but that is my fault. The license does not include a time limit however.

Your car augment is like TheJadedOne's weak. New cars are generally not delivered broken, and if one did have an issue it would be usually fixed the first time you report it.

If you want to use a car analogy, this is like buying a new car and getting Onstar free as part of the car for however long. You own the car, and your free do what every you want with car (drive it, put many miles on it, ect) but Onstar is free to discontinue there service to you at any time. The game = the car and Onstar = multiplayer.

Hey, I'm back just to let you know that u are stupid :D.

Sigh... can't you just agree to disagree?

LOL, agree that AOW3 doesn't have DRM? :)) your so biased, your title is "Witcher&AoW Fan". Witcher is developed by CD Projekt, the Polish guys who own GOG, and AOW the game we are talking about right now. If you want to look unbiased on this matter at least change your title, lol... so stupid...

I'm going to regret feeding the troll, but the only person who's looking stupid is you.

Agreeing to disagree is basically saying, I am fine with the fact that you have a different opinion than mine. So you agree that he doesn't think AoW 3 has DRM and he agrees that you think AoW 3 does have DRM. No one will change opinions and all the cards have been laid out on the table. A discussion can start, then one of two parties lay out their cards on the table. Result: One or the other changes their opinion or neither.

Also, I can like both games a lot, can't I? I already had that title before AoW 3 came around so there.

Looking stupid? why, because I didn't knew the stupid expression? it can be interpreted in both ways, I have used the way that I like more.

The problem here is not me not knowing the difference between singleplayer and multiplayer. The problem here is you arbitrarily saying one thing is a "service" (and therefore by your logic not DRM) and in another case not a "service" (and therefore potentially DRM). If you are going to make the argument that "is service" means "not DRM", then you have to either accept the logical ramifications of that argument or recognize that the argument itself is wrong. You can't just grab the meaning of "is service" and spastically flail it around to suit your purposes.

Your use of "for free" here is very telling. These things are not even remotely "for free". They come with a significant cost. That cost is just not in $.

And here's the thing -- I don't give a shit about matchmaking or high scores. Those things are just cover for the DRM. They are something to fool naive individuals into believing "the networked multiplayer had to use Triumph's servers". They are there to be the scapegoat when people point out that when Triumph's servers are down or unreachable the game's networked multiplayer feature won't work. They are a trivial pretext for keeping everyone's ability to play networked multiplayer under Triumph's thumb -- right where they need it so they can impose DRM. I already alluded to these being pretexts in my original post when I talked of using the publisher's servers for doing addition -- that was the most "obviously a pretext" thing I could think of.

And are you now saying that tracking high scores is a "BKGaming Approved Service"? So it's OK if every single game adds such a service (and if a game doesn't currently have a concept of "score" it can just add that), and then it can say in order to play you'll need a key and authenticate with the publisher's servers in order to get to the "high score service", and if our servers are down or don't like you then you can't play (because we can't record your score or tell you the highest scores), and that's not DRM at all -- BKGaming says so? And that goes for single player as well because high score is a single-player-applicable service.

Why is networked multiplayer a service? There are plenty of networked multiplayer games that don't rely on publisher's (or other 3rd party) servers. How can they do that if multiplayer is a service?

And why can't single player be a service? In fact, I'm pretty sure it's already been done.

Furthermore, there is even an example case that hit GOG that I can point to, and that is SpaceChem. That is a purely single-player game. Before it came to GOG (and even a bit afterwards!) it required a key. It would use that key to authenticate with whatever server(s) Zachtronics set up. And that was ostensibly for the purpose of letting people see/share high scores and best solutions.

So was their score/solution sharing system a "service" or not? It sure seems like a service to me. But since you would then (according to your own "if service, not DRM" logic) have to say it's OK for them to end/deny such service, and by doing so break people's single player gaming. You would then be contradicting yourself when you say things like "If single player phoned home or required a key then this would be DRM."

First, there can be (see above).

Second, needing a network and needing Triumph's servers to be up, reachable and cooperative are two very different things. Networked multiplayer needs a network of some sort -- obviously. In most cases where the amount of network traffic (i.e., number of players * traffic/player) can be handled by a single box, networked multiplayer does not need a publisher's servers -- unless of course the publisher artificially programs that requirement in.

What do you mean "no service"? They are providing an "adding two numbers over the internet" service! (Egads! I just realized I forgot to apply for a patent!) All you need is any old pretext to add some trivial service and boom, no more DRM according to you.

What you said was twisted before I ever laid eyes on it. I'm just pointing out the "twists" so you can see them. I am doing that by showing you the inconsistent conclusions your logic reaches. Apparently you can see the problem with the conclusions, and you don't like them, but you still can't see/accept that you are the ultimate source.

My views on "what is or is not DRM" don't have jack to do with feelings -- they are based on logic. And I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm just seeing whether or not I can figure out how to open your eyes.

I looked, I can't find it

I think KnThrak's referring to this part:

Online Multiplayer (requires a unique CD key, which will be located in your game shelf, and an on-line account with Triumph Studios).

(though some people here dispute that requiring a Triumph account counts as DRM).

Speaking of GOG games in general, basically only single-player is pretty consistently DRM-free on GOG. Many GOG games have DRM on the multiplayer, and GOG generally notes that in each case on the game page -- but, I don't think they ever call it "DRM". (From a {non-ethical} PR perspective they can't -- that would be admitting that their common claims about GOG being DRM free are false.) Instead they describe the technical limitations/requirements without mentioning the three-letter-acronym.

But are they secret Muslims?

@BK-Gaming

I.License
Noadays many games can't be played without running one or more of those "services" , SP and MP alike and it's part of the business conditions that they can stop providing this service at any time...or anytime after date X.
According to the pure word of the law you're right...because i still own the license..but in practice and according to the sense of the law i own nothing because i can't use it without the service needed.

Furthermore otherwise limited licenses (or is the plural license too?) are quiet common too, like timelimited licenses for MMO's, Security Sofware,...

II.Car Analogy
You said it yourself...cars should be deliverd in good order and if they're broken they should fix the issue the first time i report it, otherwise i can do with my car what i wish and here's the problem...at your example i can use the additional service...but if i don't use it or they stop providing it...it still can use my car and do with it wathever i wish.

But to use it as a analogy for PC-games...your example is inadequate...i have to use the service if i wan't to use my car and if they stop providing the service i can't use my car anymore...therefor i used the analogy car+electronical locked engine.

To point it out(again :)...the limitations for AoW3 aren't that harsh because one can at least play a nearly full functional SP without being forced to use the service...but..as soon as i am forced to use any kind of those "services" to make use of everything i bought/rented..it's DRM.

III.
At some point you asked...at wich terms we would accept AoW3 being DRM-free.
Option a.
AoW3 SP+at least one real MP-Mode(Several people can play simultaneously) without any need to use
a "service"...one or more optional "service"modes with control&observation+rewards like Highscorelist

Option b.
Different Editions..like a pure and cheaper SP-Edition, a (maybe more expensive) LAN-Edition that can be installed at up X-PC's at one time to play LAN,...


PS: Several times...you used the argument "it just common nowadays that at least the MP-Mode it controlled&observed and that you need services X+Y to make use of it. Sure..you're right..it's quite common, like DRM,...but..isn't this the reason Gog was created...to offer the uncommon...games without DRM, controls and observation...
If i had the choice...well...it's very presumably that i would have created a Thriumph-Account because several of my friends that love games like AoW too live in different countrys and we barly manage to meet twice a year.
We probaby would use the service to play via internet...but there's no choice...that's what DRM is about...taking you the chance to decide..forcing you...well and thats it...if they offer AoW SP+MP as combined content at Gog, the Site for DRMfree games, i expect a game that has a SP and a real MP-Option that can be played without being forced to use one of that services.
Understand me right...i knew that several other games at Gog have restrictions for Online-MP but all i own myself have at least TCP/IP and/or LAN as a DRM-free Option and this way it really feels like an service, i can decide if i wan't to use that additional service, trading some of my freedom for luxury, i did it for several games (selling a part of my soul for bread&games:)..the impoartant point is...i decide.