Well, I installed 1.43 directly onto a 1.41 install....and since the 'assassin rebelling' problem seems more like a 1.41 issue = probably something is wonky.

Well, it'll be an easy fix = I'll do a clean install and ONLY use 1.43.

it works - builder guild can flawless create ships and put them on nearest sea tiles.
https://imgur.com/lWvXvfX

but this setting change in release, remove all shipyards from map, i have to manually place fake-builders- guild on map.

I expect that replacing shipyards with builders guilds will also affect which structure you can construct with a builder.

Possibly some of these issues may be circumvented if you make sure the resource IDs are inverted (60 for builders guild and 75681724 for shipyard).

I did tell you to remove any files from previous installations, and even without that it still would have worked if you had started the game from the correct shortcut.

Still very much on my todo list, but I still haven't found where to edit this and I'm currently working on other stuff.

By the way, could someone test exactly what the Independent AI setting in AoWEd does? As far as I can tell, independent stacks with Auto behaviour will be Wandering if set to Off, and Patrolling if set to Easy/Normal/Aggressive. Does it have any other effects in v1.36?

looks like whether structure produce merchandise or not depends from ID.

1. i copy Builders Guild, change it ID 137134433 into ID 60 - dont create income, replace shipyards on maps

2. i give to vanilla Shipyard id from my custom Builder Guild : 137134433 - generate income
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if I create Builders, and make Shipyard: he would build my fake structure with id 60, BUT this fake-builder-guild will produce gold !!

this looks like some riddle, not sure if there is combination to receive Shipyard producing gold?

also the in structure icons, that i cannot find in libs (like loot, raze...) are depend from ID.

That's interesting, I thought the Object Type dropdown menu is what controls whether the game considers a structure to be a shipyard or builders guild. Any idea what that's for then? I haven't experimented much with editing HSS objects other than units so this is all new territory to me as well.

It could easily be a feature that was abandoned or never implemented - like the blood types and some other things I can't remember right now.
I don't support income on shipyards anyway, since I would rather see shipyards be cheap and built for boats, not gold. But it's always good to discuss modding potential.

summarize

regarding Object type: if i change it in editor it reset the structure. Maybe the editor is not complete in this regard?

we can have shipyard1 (placed on map) that create income

and

shipyard2 - transformation from builder, that dont produce income

and still in custom map you can just place shipyard2. Because apparently, it gold producing ports, would need to be hand placed on revised maps.

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IMO Its a shame that there is nice capture point on map, that is not so attractive. Plus its more diversification of gold income sources. Plus in AoW+ there is not soo much gold.

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so i hand place my fakeBG with id60
It produce income!

soo,, only the old hand placed shipyards are not producing gold. But why?! how does the game can tell that one structure with same ID, was placed before or after rule change (Release).

It make no sense, its like someone make special memory allocation to keep that information?

[yes.. im no longer playing games, im conspiration theory investigator now :D]

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i was thinking before sleep about this income from shipyard

this morning I change id back. Shipyard get id 60. And fake-BuildGuild get back his 123123123

here is the outcome

hand map placed by me Shipyard, after Release change, still has income! even if theoretically it should be stock Shipyard like in vanilla.

when you place Shipyard on map, game save information, if this particular structure should produce gold (set in current Release.hss).

-- i check now, what if I reinstall all AoW, and just put back map, in fresh copy--

this is insane. Naked AoW1. I just copy scenario (no release, no aow+, no mod, nothing else)
https://imgur.com/mM433Ns]
my hand placed (when release setting change id to BG) shipyard produce income![/url]

inside he has all units and setting from normal Vanilla game

so this income information is store in scenarios? or in some external file. that was not deleted with AoW?
can someone launch this scenario as goblin and check if bottom Shipyard create income?

I tested your scenario and the bottom Shipyard does indeed produce gold. (The Shipyard between the Builders Guild and the Mine is missing though.)

I also found a way to enable income from Shipyards in the engine. However, this income isn't properly listed in the realm gold overview; I have the choice of either merging it with the Builders Guilds income or creating a new category but in either case there's the problem that the description doesn't match where the income actually comes from since there's no plural string for Shipyards. The best I could come up with is to merge income from Builders Guilds and Shipyards and call it "Producing" which is an existing resource string, but I'm not entirely happy with that.

If Shipyards generate gold they would need to be removed as a buildable structure. I don't actually mind this too much since the AI never builds structures anyway.

On another note I am considering removing the raze defenders for non-city structures. I never liked how e.g. a Shipyard would always generate Human units when razed; obviously the lack of raze defenders would make scorched earth tactics more viable but personally I don't see a problem with that.

I am also considering setting Hero upkeep to a fixed low value, maybe 5. If you have any strong opinions about this then now is the time to convince me otherwise.

Removing buildable shipyards and raze defenders would be downgrading the game by removing features!

Income of 6 gold off a buildable structure currently pegged at 7 turns and 295 gold (counting the rebuilder) in your engine is hardly a gamebreaking mechanic that needs to be removed. That's fifty-seven (57) turns to make a profit! In AoW2 you can build entire new towns and the feature is ignorable despite taking much less time than that to pay off. If someone wants to press end turn 57 times to break even, followed by a profit of 6 gold per turn per shipyard, let them. Some people would enjoy it!

The only thing I dislike about shipyard gold is that it makes it harder to argue that it shouldn't cost 200 goldand 5 turns to make one.

Non-city raze defenders can be easily edited via ruleset (unlike city defenders which are generated by a different mechanic), and in fact my ruleset already has expanded raze defender lists for these structures, including non-human forces. So it's no wonder I feel butthurt seeing the idea that they should be removed!

In particular, rampaging Syrons from razed teleporters is a pretty cool feature that has played a role in some PBEMs.

Just for clarification, the structures where I would remove raze defenders are Farms, Mines, Builders Guilds, Shipyards, and Towers. Nodes, Altars and Teleports would stay as they are.

Shipyard income name in Realm, doesn't matter. i prefer a new GOOD twist to meta, than some minor clarification in some financial spreadsheet, that i rarely even open.

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southern is right

every structure should has avengers. Its a feature of AoW1. that you Ang G nicely emphasize with new race relations, and revolting cities.

I agree that full stack from shipyard is little too strong (+ can be adjusted in Release.hss). but removing them completely is exaggeration to the other side!

IMO, the amount of forces to raze a structure could be Lowered, so its easier to Raze with smaller army.

With avengers: you need to calculate movement to be able to escape from avengers, you need to take into account that avengers may join your enemy (southern mod has varied races) OR that they may disturb his strategy!
- all in all avengers (even from small places) make the game better.

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souther is also right with Shipyard cost from Builder. Its too expensive. Being afraid of +6 gold, is not a good rationale, to castrate game even more, from currently NOT VALID tactics with building Sea Unit spawn point.

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Southern you suppose to provide various things gold income and cost calculations. I read you were eager to do so.

I did start a spreadsheet, but it's a rather slow and boring process sorting it out.
Maybe next week I can complete it, complete with linked formulae so that changing the parameters immediately updates the net income from a city with various approaches.

@And G

I like your idea of removing shipyards as a buildable structure in order to give them a gold generating attribute! It also further helps balance AI vs Human, since (as you said) the AI can't build shipyards anyway!

As for the hero upkeep remaining low = I'm all for it! Your units don't increase in upkeep as they level up = why should your hero? ....that said, maybe give hero's the same upkeep as a Lvl4 unit....5 gold seems low.

Also, clean install of 1.43 no longer has the berserk orc assassins problem.

It's not about the strength of raze defenders, it's about the impossibility of spawning thematically appropriate units for the structures I listed.

Exactly. AoW has a number of features that the AI never uses and I have very few qualms about making those features unattractive to human players. If this means that humans don't use these features at all then that's fine with me. Competitive maps already have Shipyards and Towers where they're needed.