Gundato: Either way, I just get very annoyed when people start arguing "criminals' rights" and the like. It sucks that we have a lot of crime and there is a lot more that we can be doing for the criminals, but it doesn't mean we don't have freedom if we put a rapist in prison.

rs2yjz: Not 'no freedom' but trouble for our citizens from big government. There's many cities with Universities you literally cannot park your car without being susceptible to multiple ticketing infractions, and the money goes the same place for felonies, you certainly don't need Jesus for a parking ticket, but the infractions grease the same industry.
In America some companies, factories, plants, and mills can sit around abandoned in poor areas where people once worked. So they must, or are convinced that they need to build a prison because it's instant jobs and revenue back home. Our service based industries keep our hands in each others pockets a bit too much but that's only an opinion, and not an objective fact.
There's more scrutiny paid to white collar crime with its impact on our citizens within the last 10 years, but they pale in comparison with our drug/gun possession laws concerning why our numbers of imprisoned is so high. Martha Stewart is an example. She got caught for hearing the "good word" about a stock LOL, yet its rare to see the ones doing the fixing for themselves behind bars. A large public outcry or juicy scandal is needed to leave one unable to pay their way out of a heavy sentence.
Many European countries I've been to, (France & Hungary in particular) with similar sentiments about welfare LOVE how strict our system is on our citizens for they wish it the same dealing with their neighboring community of gypsy or muslim residents. I recall the 3 strikes in California creating a big impression. They were more aware of it than I was. A Hungarian friend, said "You could be starving ! And just steal a loaf of bread and *made a gesture with his hands like cleaning up* Bong, 3 strikes!! Oh, WE NEED THAT HERE!!!!"
: D
Happy 4th everyone. New World, new problems but still wouldn't live anywhere for it.

Gundato: Yes, we have massive problems with "over-zealous" ticket giving. But that isn't just because the government is evil and greedy. There is only so much money to go around, and politicians prefer to spend money on things they can get their faces on. And bailouts that economists call pointless. And health care programs for the entire country when we can't even manage health care for Native American reservations or the armed forces...
So we are more likely to see "Senator Smith is hard on crime. He just got us funds for a new prison or a new precinct. Watch as he pushes a shovel into the ground" as opposed to "Senator Smith is hard on crime. He got funding for three new police cars and gave the overworked cops a raise. Here is a stock photo from five years ago"
So cops have "quotas" with regard to tickets and the like. And that becomes a vicious cycle. Any high density population area is going to have lots of police patroling it. Believe it or not, that is a GOOD thing (rapid response times). Unfortunately, that means the law tends to actually get enforced in those areas. And universities tend to be even "worse", because they DO hire those magic private security companies that can come and rescue you within two minutes of needing help. Which means they can also give you a ticket within two minutes of illegally parking :p

Gundato: So again, are we less free because we enforce our laws? Are we less free because we have criminals?

Zeewolf: No and no, but look at those statistics. The US is EXTREME compared to the rest of the western world. You have explanations and rationalizations, but they only get you so far.
Anyway, this will be my last post in this thread. Happy 4th of July. :-)

Gundato: Yes, but what is the cause of those "extreme" statistics? You are assuming that we have thought-police laws or something. Maybe you should go find the laws that you disagree with.

Zeewolf: OK, I have only been to America once (Los Angeles), but I came away thoroughly impressed with the country and the people. Everyone I met were friendly, welcoming and helpful. I refuse to believe that the people in USA are more criminal than people elsewhere (generally speaking).
So what's happening here? Why on earth are so many Americans in prison? As far as I can see, Spain tops the list of Western European countries, with 162 out of 100 000 people in jail. USA has 760! I mean, Jebus!

Zeewolf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
760 prisoners per 100 000, that puts you on top of the global statistics. To put that into perspective, it's more than double the amount they have in Israel. Almost four times as many as in Iran. You're even well ahead of Russia.

Lou: I think you make my point - Incarcerations do not show lack of freedom - just people that break the law. I take this as more people feel free to break the law even when faced with incarceration.

DarrkPhoenix: Except that the incarceration rate and crime rates in the US show a distinct disparity. Since 1980 the incarceration rate has skyrocketed, while over that same period of time the crime rate has actually gone down a bit (it trended upward a bit until around 1990, then started trending down).

Gundato: Like I keep saying, it isn't perfect. But it isn't taking our freedoms, and we are no less (or more) free than any other nation just because we enforce our laws.

barleyguy: None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Lou: I would say we need to examine what makes up that crime rate - I am guessing not all crime is making it in that stat.

DarrkPhoenix: If you don't want to take my information at face value then I encourage you to look into the numbers on your own.
EDIT: You may also want to take a look at how the length of prison terms has changed over time. For example, the number of life sentences has more than doubled since the early 90s, a large part due to the passage of three strikes laws in various states.

Lou: Didn't mean to offend if I did. Just think something must be missing, From what I can find the crime rate has Violent and Property Crime Stats in it but the Incarceration Rate includes a huge amount of Drug arrests/incarcerations that are not in the crime rate stat.