I disagree. Classic Wizardry games can be challenging enough with save states, but having to restart the game just because you got unlucky is not fun. Also, how is the game randomly deleting your characters considered acceptable?

Also, the Bard's Tale series is different; in fact, Bard's Tale 3 (and some versions of 2) allow you to save anywhere and reload the save as many times as you want.

Actually, it may have been a Rainbow Six one:

"OK, now climb the ladder... Go on, climb the ladder... Look! CLIMB THE BLOODY LADDER! IT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!!" -- BANG! -- "Right, is there any of you other AI controlled idiots who doesn't want to climb the ladder?" :-P

EDIT: And just to add another couple of old games that seemed to be fairly unforgiving -- I enjoyed the old Ultimas, but they always seemed to want to make sure your party was well and truly dead!

You don't have to restart. Have you played the games, or just hacked and "experimented"? You can send down another party to retrieve the remains of the old party. Party death is not Game Over. Wiz 4 is of course a different matter, since it's so unfair that meta gaming is required.

Also, in BT1 and 2 you could only save at the Adventurers Guild.

I think Wiz 1-3 and BT1-2 did it right. In encouraged a cautious play style, but it was not the end of the game if your party was killed. So you could play them 100% Ironman, have your party killed, but still win the game without reloading.

Lol ok perhaps, though I don't remember any ladder shy swat members during my playthrough. Granted that was very long ago, and perhaps I didn't really use ladders. If I had to guess I'd say there's probably a special ladder climbing command hidden away somewhere in the planning interface.

I have played many Wizardry games (including 1, 2 (NES/SFC arrangement), 4, 5, 8, and Wizardry Gaiden 3), as well as the entire Bard's Tale series (not counting the one released last decade).

In any case, the problem is that retrieving the old party with a new party is not what I consider to be fun, and I don't see it adding to the gameplay.

Regarding my point (and looking at one point in the NES/SFC arrangement of Knight of Diamonds, namely the cave floor (B5F in the version I'm talking about)), when you trip a teleporter trap, there is a high chance that your party gets teleported into rock and lost forever. Having to reload because your party got unlucky with a trap is bad enough; having to start the entire game over because of a random chance event is *far* worse. (Keep in mind; there's no 100% accurate way (without carefully studying the RNG) to prove that a trap is not a teleporter trap.) Also, when this happens, retrieving your party is not an option. (Dying to a boss has a similar issue; you need a party that can kill the boss to retrieve the party.) (Side note: In Wizardry Gaiden 3, when teleporting into rock, your party is "only" Dead and returned to town; then again, WG3 *requires* you to do a random teleport at one point in the post game.) (Side note 2: In Elminage Gothic, it is possible (but rare) for an enemy's spell to teleport your party into rock; I had this happen before I could act at least once, and I even made a topic about it.)

Some versions of Bard's Tale 2, including the DOS version, do allow you to save everywhere except during death snares. (It's worth noting that this does break one death snare, as all you need to do is reload if you go in the wrong door.)

Also, the Bard's Tale series isn't so bad because you don't need to retrieve the dead characters and the most common forms of resurrection are reliable and don't have side effects (unlike in Wizardry). Hence, there is a fair decision between reloading (and losing everything you picked up since your last save) or continuing (and having to pay for resurrection).

One other question: Is there a reason you didn't mention Wizardry 5?

*sold

...but I have to get to Cydonia first :)

One other question: Have you played Elminage Gothic? If you enjoyed Wizardry 1-3, you should enjoy Elminage Gothic; it's the same type of game. Note that, once you get past the starter dungeon, the game does get quite brutal much the way classic Wizardry games did (and it even has a similar system for retrieving dead party members).

Edit: "e" in "enjoy" doesn't need to be capitalized.

It got too big and tedious to play Ironman.
Also bugged at the end.
It's not like all games are suited to the Ironman style. Wiz 1-2 and BT 1-2 are perfect for it, though.

And no, I haven't played Elminage. Anyway, I play game chronologically so it's way down on my play list. The artwork doesn't look like the usual vomit inducing anime of Japanes games, so I may eventually give it a try.

So going to download this...

Oh, just remembered that I technically play Fire Emblem with permedeath too but I don't really see that as optional as it is only a recent addition to be able to turn it off and it's how the games are meant to be played.

I like having to adapt and prevail.

Playing Dues Ex with no loading. Arma 2 with no loading. Hitman, no saving. Farcry checkpoints. FTL and rogue-likes. Xcom with no loading. GTAV no restart mission button.

Not all exactly ironman mode, but playing them somewhat like that.

I'm not totally opposed to it, but when the game isn't 100% stable, then you either lose progress... or your entire game (looking at you FTL).

I think there are usually more entertaining ways to increase a game's difficulty than a no-save/no-death run, but I don't mind roguelikes that have long-term achievements to work towards, like FTL and Tokyo Jungle.

No; or at least not for a loooong time. In those ultra-tense, death is imminent AND permanent moments my most dreaded thought is the following: "Fuck; Its past 11, I cannot save, I have to go to work tomorrow morning, I'll have to wait 18h before I can try again; I'll probably mess up again, fuck this I'm out of here".

I'm not dragged into the games atmosphere with such modes like ironman & rougelikes/lites. I get dragged out of it and on top get reminded of the Nemesis of my gaming time: Work.

I've tried in the past but nowadays I never do. I avoid roguelikes like the plague and I would really, really enjoy a filter for any game site like GOG or Steam that hides whole genres, specifically those that have limited saves, permadeath or otherwise where progress isn't a main aspect of the game.

I would much prefer a dynamic, smart way to customize the A.I's behavior pattern to increase the challenge if needed.