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General discussion (archive)Why punish customers instead of rewarding them?(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 15, 2011
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Coelocanth: and activation limits?
What activation limits? What possible reason would you have to play the game on more than five machines at the same time?
Posted April 15, 2011
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Delixe: What activation limits? What possible reason would you have to play the game on more than five machines at the same time?
You answered the first with your second question. Just to be clear, I wouldn't. This affects me in no other way than the principle involved.

But I'm saying they shouldn't go spouting about a one-time need to connect to the internet with no install limits and no machine limits when you cannot install and play on 6 machines. It's disingenuous and misleading. Did you see the broadcast? When they announced the DRM, it looked to me like Gop was uncomfortable about having to spell it out and this just looks like an attempt to gloss over the whole thing. That doesn't fly with me. Delixe, I agree with you on many of your views re piracy and gaming, but I doubt we're going to agree on this point.
Posted April 15, 2011
Personally, I think CDP did things this way as a test. If they can prove that TW2 sells better completely DRM free here at GOG, than it does anywhere else with DRM, then they have proven a major point in a much more successful way than they ever could have if they had just told the publishers to "go screw" over their DRM stance. Publishers understand profits much better than they understand moral arguments.
Posted April 15, 2011
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Coelocanth: Delixe, I agree with you on many of your views re piracy and gaming, but I doubt we're going to agree on this point.
I was just never under the illusion that the game would be DRM free anywhere other than GOG. You point to ME2 and DA but they got around that by putting the DRM on the DLC. You and I both know that DRM wasn't worth the time it spent to write the XML but nevertheless it was there. I'm pretty sure that CD Projekt given the choice would have made all versions DRM free but no publisher in the current climate is going to agree to that. You say CD Projekt should have flipped publishers the finger but they don't have retail distribution like publishers do. It would have meant no retail copies of The Witcher 2 at all. As for digital if CD Projekt had not allowed Atari/Namco to negotiate with the likes of Steam and D2D it's very likely they would have undercut GOG by at least $10 which GOG would have been unable to compete with.

The buyer has the power and in this case you are completely within your rights to cancel whatever pre-order you have made. I pre-ordered with GOG and i'm sticking to that as it's still the same product I signed on for. I'm not actually saying anyone here is wrong, i'm just saying things are not as clear cut as you are saying. Blaming CD Projekt entirely in my oppinion is going a little far because once there are publishers involved it's not entirely their call.

Baby steps, remember baby steps. For all concerned the best possible outcome is the GOG version will be a storming success and that will make publishers take note of the viability of DRM free games.
Post edited April 15, 2011 by Delixe
Posted April 15, 2011
As i see it, they've provided an array of choices that won't leave anyone out in the cold, folks just need to sort out their priorities.

Your priorities relate to the physical goodies ? Get the boxed version. You're striclty a steam user ? get it there. Your priorities relate to DRM concerns ? get it from gog.

Yeah, you can't have it all, that's life for you. Don't get me wrong, i'm not belittling people's concerns over DRM in those other versions, i'm pointing out that in the specific case of this release i'm glad that there's an alternative for virtually every set of priorities out there.
Posted April 15, 2011
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cogadh: Personally, I think CDP did things this way as a test. If they can prove that TW2 sells better completely DRM free here at GOG, than it does anywhere else with DRM, then they have proven a major point in a much more successful way than they ever could have if they had just told the publishers to "go screw" over their DRM stance. Publishers understand profits much better than they understand moral arguments.
Perhaps, but there are too many variables for them to make a definitive case:

-How many potential buyers that would buy retail are aware of GOG?
-How many sales on GOG are actually driven by the no-DRM feature?
-Retail and digital are different markets, so can you really compare sales of one to sales of the other and draw definitive conclusions?

From what I've been able to find out, CDP are the publisher for the retail versions in Poland, which apparently also contain the same DRM scheme. What would have been an interesting comparison is to release the game in Poland DRM free and compare that to a country with similar PC RPG game sales figures that is selling the DRM-saddled version.

Of course, the best test would be to have a DRMed version and a non-DRM version in the retail shops side by side on the shelf with the DRM features clearly marked on each and then see how sales look.
Posted April 15, 2011
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Coelocanth: This affects me in no other way than the principle involved.
I like that, I do, but at some point you just have to say if it doesn't effect you is it really worth making a principled stand? I don't like DRM either, the idea that you have to ask a publisher to play the game you bought, but at the end of the day can anyone in this thread say that DRM works? Ever? Is anyone in this thread honestly worried that they one day will not be able to install The Witcher 2 due to DRM? That there will be no way to make that happen on the PC?

Let's be honest with ourselves, DRM is insignificant. DRM might as well not even be there. I put in my little codes and I tie my games to Steam and all that jazz and it all works, it's pretty much invisible. If one day it doesn't work it will take me five minutes to get around it, if that. So what would I be making a principled stand over? Isn't it better to save that energy for something that... you know... matters?
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cogadh: Personally, I think CDP did things this way as a test. If they can prove that TW2 sells better completely DRM free here at GOG, than it does anywhere else with DRM, then they have proven a major point in a much more successful way than they ever could have if they had just told the publishers to "go screw" over their DRM stance. Publishers understand profits much better than they understand moral arguments.
I don't really see why GOG specific sales matter. The DRM free GOG version will be out there either way, it's not like pirates care which version they are downloading. Good sales of The Witcher 2 in general will make a statement, but good sales of the DRM free version is kind of irrelevant.

Also people need to go ahead and accept ahead of time that Steam sales will trump GOG sales by a huge amount. That is a given.
Post edited April 15, 2011 by StingingVelvet
Posted April 15, 2011
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gargus: And curling up on your couch with a good book? Your pulling up that cliched image to say everyone who reads only does so with a cup of cocoa, a blanket, on their couch, infront of a fire, with their dog napping at their feet while they are lost in the magic that is a book? You know a kindle is? Know what a htpc is?
Yes, but. There's that one crucial difference. Books as physical objects differ from their electronic versions. It is a noticeable different experience reading a physical book then reading something on a screen. I hate reading book long texts on a screen; most people I know do too. I don't think paper books will ever completely lose out to electronic versions.

That's not the case with games which, whether pirated copy or original, always and for everyone are exactly the same experience. Films suffer from the same problem as games. Musicians have the benefit that a live performance is quite different from a studio recording; the non-pirateable experience of a live concert is where the real money is for them.

Add to that that it is WAY easier to steal electronic media than it is to steal physical media [not least for the fear factor involved; the one you can do within your own private sphere, the other you actively have to prevent being caught and observed] - then yes, books just are not comparable to games. Or rather - electronic piracy just simply is a MUCH more existential problem for the game industry than it is for book publishers.
Posted April 15, 2011
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Mnemon: That's not the case with games which, whether pirated copy or original, always and for everyone are exactly the same experience. Films suffer from the same problem as games. Musicians have the benefit that a live performance is quite different from a studio recording; the non-pirateable experience of a live concert is where the real money is for them.
I agree with you overall but it's important to note that pirated music is 99% of the time of lesser quality than the CD album. That said unfortunately no one seems to care about music quality above MP3 minimums.
Posted April 15, 2011
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StingingVelvet: That said unfortunately no one seems to care about music quality above MP3 minimums.
That's slowly changing. For years the trouble was affordable MP3 players were stuck with just that MP3's. Now though you have a lot of very affordable players offering lossless playback and the general public are starting to notice the difference.
Posted April 15, 2011
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StingingVelvet: I don't really see why GOG specific sales matter. The DRM free GOG version will be out there either way, it's not like pirates care which version they are downloading. Good sales of The Witcher 2 in general will make a statement, but good sales of the DRM free version is kind of irrelevant.

Also people need to go ahead and accept ahead of time that Steam sales will trump GOG sales by a huge amount. That is a given.
Why would that be irrelevant? If the DRM free version outsells the others, then they have shown that being DRM free is a clear selling point for the game and that having DRM negatively impacted the sales through other outlets. That's the kind of argument publishers will understand; no DRM = bigger sales therefore they have one less reason to use DRM in the future.

You're probably right about Steam trumping GOG, though.
Posted April 15, 2011
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cogadh: You're probably right about Steam trumping GOG, though.
Even if GOG were outselling Steam all Valve would have to do is introduce a hat for TF2 that gave a character Geralts hair and Steam would win.
Posted April 15, 2011
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cogadh: If the DRM free version outsells the others, then they have shown that being DRM free is a clear selling point for the game and that having DRM negatively impacted the sales through other outlets. That's the kind of argument publishers will understand; no DRM = bigger sales therefore they have one less reason to use DRM in the future.
Even better, by using the same logic, don't buy a damn game with DRM if you want it to stop. Vote with your wallet, which more people would be willing to do if they could figure out something to do with their lives instead of being stuck in front of some screen all day. It must suck to be that bored all the time.
Posted April 15, 2011
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cogadh: You're probably right about Steam trumping GOG, though.
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Delixe: Even if GOG were outselling Steam all Valve would have to do is introduce a hat for TF2 that gave a character Geralts hair and Steam would win.
It's sad how true this actually is.
Posted April 15, 2011
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crazy_dave: As for the 50MB, what exactly is it that is in that 50MB missing from the retail disk? I thought it was just more bonus material? If it's free bonus stuff, then while not ideal it's hardly a crime against humanity; if it is necessary stuff, then yes I agree that does suck.
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Zeewolf: They said at the conference it was necessary to download it. So it's DRM.

In fact, it is probably the only DRM that work towards its intended purpose. And that purpose is simple: To prevent anyone from pirating the game before it is released.

Pirate groups often have access to people in the distribution and retail business. So they will be able to get access to early copies of games. But in the case of The Witcher; well, what they get is incomplete. The 50 MB that is missing is likely executable and other crucial files. So they can't crack the game ahead of the release date, because there is nothing for them to crack.

This also explains why CD Projekt can, at the same time, offer the game DRM-free from GOG. Because they know, like we do, that DRM won't help once the game is in circulation. The game will be cracked in a hurry and released on torrent sites, regardless of the DRM. And they also know that once the game is on sale, and easy to obtain by legal means, a lot of people who would otherwise pirate it just to get it early are just going to buy it instead.

So they do everything they can to make sure that the game is not going to be available on torrent sites before the release, instead of trying (and failing) to keep the game from ever being cracked.

Which is understandable. But as a customer of the disc-based version, I obviously do not like it. Because the day the DRM-servers stop working, I will no longer be able to install it. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I'll experience server troubles on the release day, since everyone who buys it (including GOG-customers, BTW) has to download a bunch of files for it to play.
Okay I see where you are coming from and that does suck. But that just seems like an awful lot of bother to stave off a couple days of pirating since the second it's available on release day the pirates will have access to the GOG version with no cracking even necessary. Forcing some DLC hardly seems worth it from any angle. Again it would be odd for CD Projekt to want to include such a measure and support a DRM-free version, but I'm sorry for your troubles.
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General discussion (archive)Why punish customers instead of rewarding them?(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)