Actually I was (and I suppose Dahmer666 was too) referring to TES series in general, and to what do they have in common with each other. As for the Skyrim's character development system that you seem to be refering the most to, it can't be divided into parts, it has to be looked at for how it looks like in the whole. It's hardly streamlining - I don't really like it all that much either to be fair, but Bethseda has actually managed to solve the often criticized issue of 'getting all skills to 100', so that's something. Perks genuinely force you to profile your character and properly plan ahead, which no other TES games really did, all the decisionmaking was concentrated into first 10 minutes of the game and then you just went with it. The result is twofold - you have a much greater freedom in shaping your character as you go along, which to some people feels more organic, but I don't really like it as I prefer to form my character on the beginning.

Point being - it's not really dumbing down as it actually ends up requiring more thought put into character development, not less. At any rate, I was not talking about mainstreaming per se, I was talking about design decisions that apply to all TES games, as Dahmer666 said he doesn't like TES games in general.

That being said:

Agreed, it's a shame that happened. But it's not really a bad design decision, just a different one - the system in Morrowind actually led to some peculiar issues.

One could argue that maintenance was replaced by smithing. But yeah, I actually liked maintenance.

Yeah, I have preferred the way Morrowind handled this as well. Then again, 99% of the time when someone has killed a plot important NPC, game told him so and he has reloaded the game, so the difference is very minor. Still, TES games should be all about choice - this choice should be in as well.

I think we've already had this discussion before :-P Yeah, you don't have to listen to them, but I just can't fanthom why wouldn't you. I know I always do.

Sadly, this was necessary for the way in which Skyrim handles leveling

How? The fact that you have to taste ingredients to find out what they do? That actually makes way more sense than smelling it as you improve.

When I have played Oblivion for the first time, I was about 150 hours in before I have even noticed there's anything like that. I was always happy to explore, so ... I really don't know what you're talking about. A lot of people hated level scaling, but even more were perfectly content with it and explored anyway. That being said, yeah, it's not very good design, but then again, it only really applies to Oblivion.

Skyrim actually re-introduces profiling of characters via perks, which does manage to add most 'skills' from Morrowind back (like distinction between short and long blade)

You mean you can't design your own spells anymore? Yeah, that seemed to absolutely break the usual 'do what you want' philosophy of TES games.

And this goes hand to hand with 'Do what you want' philosophy of TES games. So... Yeah, I really don't know what's wrong with it.

Never noticed it, I have never been buying items in TES games in the first place. Well I have, but very few.

Eh, actually, there has never been skill-based dialogue in TES games in the first place. It has been added by Skyrim :-P
I think you need to look up the definition of the world 'linearly' as every skill offers you two and sometimes three branches ;-)

Yeah, that is weird. I can't say I dislike it, but it's kind of weird.

At any rate, you're nitpicking. There's absolutely no fundamental problem with TES series as a whole that you have mentioned in your post.

Never mind, not worth it.

Don't you wish it was possible to delete your own posts? vote for it here: http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/delete_own_forum_post...

With legendary skills, they no longer do. When a skill has been leveled up to 100, you can make it legendary, which resets it to 15 and gives you back all the perk points spent there (so you can put them elsewhere). This means you can again use the skill to level up, practically removes the level cap, and lets you get more perk points to use. Sure, you have to reset skills a couple dozen times to get all perks and everything to 100, but it is possible.

A legendary skill has no other use other than to again be viable for leveling, don't do it for your primary used skills as it will reset it to 15, do it for something you likely don't need any more at that point, say smithing. You do get a counter under it though, that tells you how many times that skill have been reset/made legendary.

Or keep mixing them with each other until you find some that match one or more effects, then the effect will be known to you.

Eh... All right. That's just a weird decision. You still only get 20 perks during your first 20 levels, so at least there's that.

- Removal of attribute system and replacement with a simplistic health/magicka/stamina system.
.. agreed

- Complete reduction of all NPC dialogue and journal text. NPC's and your quest journal will never give you enough information to find and complete a quest, forcing the player to follow the quest marker then entire game. There's no need to ever read your journal or listen to NPC's in Oblivion/Skyrim because your quest marker will always tell you where to go.
... I wouldn't claim the journal was better in Morrowind though - it was barely functional, even with the expansion. I would also doubt you get that much better information written in your journal on where to go, then you get told by NPCs in Skyrim. A cave to the west of X remains the same, spoken or written. Besides, it actually makes sense that the guard or NPC warning you of place X actually KNOWS where that is and marks it on your map....
Dialogue: Morrowind had a LOT of generic responses with some unique dialogue. With Oblivion and even more so Skyrim, nearly all NPCs have unique dialogue and are fully voiced. Ever tried to imagine the budget of a completely voiced Morrowind? Sheogorath just called - he want's you for apprenticeship....

- Removing Athletics and Acrobatics.
... was much criticised in Morrowind and Oblivion and led to bunny-hoping while casting the same spell over and over again gameplay. There's even a exercise mod adding a giant staircase in Balmora because of that...

- Automatic scaling of enemies make exploration meaningless because all enemies (and their equipment) will always scale to your character's level and be the same stats except for their appearance.
... yes, scaling was a huge flaw in Oblivion. This however is simply not true for Skyrim, where it has been adjusted across the board. Besides, no one so far came up with a better way to do it while balancing a 40+ vs. a 100+ hour playthrough. Except for setting fixed levels / difficulties for the entire world, which brings in another problem: content being locked off by lvl-walls which contradicts the open-world / do what you want approach.

- Removal of class system.
... while implementing perks, which forces you to pick your role. No perks in Morrowind, just leveling the skill to 100 and free perks in Oblivion for reaching novice / apprentice / journeyman / expert / master level. With Skyrims system you actually have to choose.
Yes, I'm aware of the legendary skill option to get all perks. I highly doubt this can be done in a significantly shorter time as in Morrowind or Oblivion.

- The prices of items, especially magic items and other "rare" and powerful items have been reduced to cheap prices so it doesn't take long for players to get the most powerful items in the game.
...Items available to buy are lvl-based in Oblivion and Skyrim. You won't get ebony weapons with lvl 10. Even if you manage to get one (possible in Skyrim, knowing where set high-lvl enemies are) they are better but still reduced in their quality. You'll need high smithing to upgrade.

- Removal of skill-based dialogue.
Persuasion checks in Skyrim? Check.

Oh, yes.

This IS a little off topic, but how come nobody ever created a 3D Forum? How cool would that be..

As there is no longer a level cap, in order to gain all 251 perks available, one or more skills must be made Legendary a total of 147 times. (Source)

I'm not so sure this falls under "casual". I'd have to call exaggeration.

Edit: and why does this even matter? Why care about how others play the game? Some use mods with goditems, some use the console for godmode / money / items / unlocking perks.... some use mods to make the game a lot harder - Deadly Dragons, Frostfall...
Just because an option is there, doesn't automagically mean you'll have to use or even consider it.

Yes. That isn't however a problem with Skyrim or TES, but with RPGs nowadays in general.

I like to post and ask this:

[url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Skills]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Skills[/url]

Did anyone really use the Centaurian, Daedric, Giantish, Harpy, Impish, Nymph, Orchish, and Spriggan skill?

Thanks for this.

I don't really care to argue anymore. Siannah wins, Oblivion is the perfect game :P

Can't really say, I'm pretty sure I used at least one of them when I last played Dagger. I wouldn't call Daggerfall's skill system balanced, but I'm pretty sure all skills were useful (to a degree). Can't say the same for the race system in Daggerfall though, that was terribly unbalanced.

I don't agree with this. Bunny hopping through entire map wasn't the greatest idea in previous games. At least this change is a plus. With most of the rest, I completely agree.

Any RPG can be exploited if the player tries as hard as they can to game the system. I'd rather an unbalanced RPG with a huge amount of skills, abilities and options, than a streamlined RPG that is more balanced but less options. Thing is, Bethesda didn't accomplished either in Skyrim, the character system is still unbalanced but now it has been completely gutted.

There's something to be said for a game where you can a thousand-and-one options for changing the shade of your character skin color, their hair, shape of their face, height, and everything about their cosmetic appearance, yet virtually nothing about actually directly changing your stats or rolling for attributes (and then assigning bonus points) like in Dagger's chargen. The same goes for that ridiculous Skyrim expansion where you have a player house, can have a wife/husband and children.

Bethesda fanboys are liking people who would dress up in medieval clothing and put fake elf ears on.

I give you even more: Differences Between Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.
And you'll have a hard time finding a post from me, where I claim Oblivion being the perfect game. But the way Oblivion get's bashed even seven years later, with usually all improvements being left out, is unparalleled. Not even Gothic 3 or 4 can hold up. :p

I am a Bethesda fanboy, no doubt about that one (without the clothing and elf ears though). I already stated that several times on gog alone. :p
I don't claim TES haven't been streamlined and yes, I'd prefer the stats and attributes, too. Though some of it actually makes sense and I refuse to bash on those, just for the sake of it - even less so if it's for the 357. time.

Oh and that ridiculous expansion (nope, DLC) allowing adoption.... well, I admit it wasn't a feature I was looking forward to when it was announced. But now my little kids give me a lot of joy....