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rampancy: Please don't put words in my mouth. Games like BloodRayne and The Witcher carry the appropriate ratings and advisories to prevent them being purchased under inappropriate circumstances.
I'm not. You explicitly stated you are fine with the outright removal of possibly offensive content (if it has the same meaning, but isn't offensive, you've removed the offensive content). Adding a warning, which the GOG forums has (see my previous post about the ToU) does not constitute as removal. If 'ass' was removed because it can be offensive, so can a bunch of games.

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rampancy: I don't disagree with the basic spirit of what you're fighting for. I agree with it completely. But screaming bloody murder over one word on a forum that's been remarkably laissez-faire about moderation, acting as if they're going to start breaking out the jackboots and brownshirts isn't reasonable. It's just like the alarmists and whiners who screamed that GOG was going to charge full price for the EA expansions (and therefore was totally, irredeemably evil) just because they sold the base games alone.
Except the alarmist and whiners claims were based on what they thought would happen. My objection is against was has happened. A pretty significant difference I think.

And this is not me screaming bloody murder :) Everything would have been worded very differently if I was.

For example, I had been thinking of creating the wishlist thing well before Asbeau mentioned it.. I only did because I thought his wording was funny. Same with the topic capitalisation. It's a mix between being serious about the issue and being silly in my ways of highlighting it.

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rampancy: The point I was trying to make was that if there was absolutely zero degrees of oversight or supervision whatsoever, the other extreme is what we see on Xbox Live, where you're totally free to say words like ass...as well as other words too.
Ah okay, then my response stands. We did have very close to zero oversight.. and the forum was fine. If I am totally honest, I thought the handling of some issues in the past were far too light-handed (where there were claims of specific intent to cause as much disruption as possible). But the hands-off approach was used and everything turned out.. mostly alright.

It'll be hard to say that the GOG community is a classy or good one, when there is no choice but to be "good".
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rampancy: Not to go off-topic, but it goes without saying that it comes with the territory of GOG "going mainstream". I think the majority of us who'd been here since before the blackout saw this coming. :/
Not really.
Main actors in this "drama" is a new user who used the word "ass" in a title, a gogger and now GOG.com employee who changed the word, and an old-timer and pillar of the community who created this topic. Weirdly enough, the new user is the one with the least amount of blame in this case.
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rampancy: Not to go off-topic, but it goes without saying that it comes with the territory of GOG "going mainstream". I think the majority of us who'd been here since before the blackout saw this coming. :/
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gameon: I think you guys are forgetting the amount of good that xyem brings to the forums. He gives out so much each year. He only wants to keep GOG the way it was.
Nope. I will always love him for what's he doing for this community. But it doesn't give him any right t o demand anything from GOG

For a second I was convinced this was xyem's joke topic, but it appears it's not.

He's acting stupid, and I'm not going to stop telling this just because he did amazing job in this community.

It is like xyem entered my house and told me how I should decorate. I would kick his ass regardless how much respect I have for him.
Post edited May 30, 2012 by keeveek
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xyem: Are you seriously saying GOG did not, in any way at all, suppress that word in that topic title?
Yes. It's not suppressed. It's a request. Suppression would require that I obliterated the original, which I have not.
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Licurg: Then, wouldn't it be OK if Judas himself changed it back?
Had he done it before the shitstorm, it would have been fine. Doing it after some people cry out for it is to give in to pressure. Doesn't matter whether I think a demand is valid or not, I disagree with giving in to reasonable demands, because next thing means you'll have to give in to unreasonable demands.
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JMich: Would you still object to a change of "Check out my new vid homies!", since that is also censorship.
Depends.

If the staff member said "This could easily be offensive. Can I change it to 'homies' instead?" (and nothing else like 'and if you say no, you'll be banned') then no, I wouldn't object because the author is effectively changing it (they simply doesn't have the direct power to).

If the staff just went and changed it, then I would (or I suppose, do) object.

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JMich: So I'll call out HYPOCRISY on you xyem.
Sorry, I don't understand how or where I have been hypocritical. Can you make it clearer please?
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Vestin: Sure - they can ignore us but we might as well ignore them. In the end - mutual respect is not only nice - it's rational.
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keeveek: Yes. Rules are simple - if you don't like GOG policy, you are free to go.

It's just like it would be in my house. If I don't like word ass being used in my home, I give you two options:

1) stop using it
2) leave my property

This is how it works. Demanding from GOG to change their (liberal as nowhere on the planet) policy is ABSURD.

Oh my god, this forums are going to shit lately.
So when GOG censors your post for swearing, you have no problem with that?

Or in this particular GOG employee's mind is shit not swearing but ass is. Because honestly, to most people shit is far more offensive than ass.

See how stupid censorship gets. And why on earth would the GOG employee think a) adults can't handle language that may be 'offensive' to a small minority and b) that kids who come on here wouldn't have heard the word 'ass'. Hell, I used to teach in Thailand and even my 10 year old Thai kids used it -- and most of them spoke about 50 words of English!
Post edited May 30, 2012 by Bloodygoodgames
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TheEnigmaticT: Yes. It's not suppressed. It's a request. Suppression would require that I obliterated the original, which I have not.
But...someone with a mod power obliterated the word 'ass' and replaced it with 'gluteus maximus', yes?
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xyem: Except the alarmist and whiners claims were based on what they thought would happen. My objection is against was has happened. A pretty significant difference I think.

And this is not me screaming bloody murder :) Everything would have been worded very differently if I was.
After some further reflection on this, I'm changing my tack to take the general position that Judas just made an honest mistake as being new on the job. I've made similar mistakes as a mod on other forums in the past, so I definitely can sympathize (and I'm sure he's feeling a little guilty about the firestorm this touched off).

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xyem: We did have very close to zero oversight.. and the forum was fine. If I am totally honest, I thought the handling of some issues in the past were far too light-handed (where there were claims of specific intent to cause as much disruption as possible). But the hands-off approach was used and everything turned out.. mostly alright.

It'll be hard to say that the GOG community is a classy or good one, when there is no choice but to be "good".
But things were sadly different back then. Because of our niche status, we did indeed have a 'Classy Community', with a lot of really helpful, mature, and enlightened discussion (potentially Rose-Tinted Glasses on my part notwithstanding) and it was one of the main reasons why I kept coming back.

Now, that the "unwashed masses" have discovered GOG, we now have the unfortunate reality of dealing with people who just, well, aren't on the whole as pleasant to deal with as they were Back in the Day. How should we deal with that? I suppose your guess is as good as mine.
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keeveek: Yes. Rules are simple - if you don't like GOG policy, you are free to go.

It's just like it would be in my house. If I don't like word ass being used in my home, I give you two options:

1) stop using it
2) leave my property

This is how it works. Demanding from GOG to change their (liberal as nowhere on the planet) policy is ABSURD.

Oh my god, this forums are going to shit lately.
That analogy just doesn't fit this situation at all. Because this isn't your house, it's a business and the people here are customers. It just wouldn't be good business practice for GOG to make people "stop using" their site or "leave", just because of a little swearing.
Yes, If GOG decided to censor or delete my posts because whatever, it's their sole right to do so. If I don't like my posts being deleted I would stop posting here - simple as that.

If I kicked somebody from my house because of using bad language, it's not censorship - it's my holy right to do so.
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maycett: That analogy just doesn't fit this situation at all. Because this isn't your house, it's a business and the people here are customers. It just wouldn't be good business practice for GOG to make people "stop using" their site or "leave", just because of a little swearing.
So if I kicked my customers out of my store because of misbehaving I would be the oppressor?

No. My house, my rules. It applies to business perfectly. Customers have right to not purchase anything from me, if they have a problem with my policy.
Post edited May 30, 2012 by keeveek
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Catshade: But...someone with a mod power obliterated the word 'ass' and replaced it with 'gluteus maximus', yes?
The link remains unchanged, although the display text has been altered. It's not a difficult thing to figure out what the text was.
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keeveek: Nope. I will always love him for what's he doing for this community. But it doesn't give him any right t o demand anything from GOG
It certainly does not.

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keeveek: He's acting stupid, and I'm not going to stop telling this just because he did amazing job in this community.
Wouldn't expect you to! If you think I'm acting stupid (which you obviously do), I'm happy for you to tell me!

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keeveek: It is like xyem entered my house and told me how I should decorate. I would kick his ass regardless how much respect I have for him.
Good. But if you kicked my ass because I said I didn't like the way you decorated, then we'd have a problem :P
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keeveek: No. My house, my rules. It applies to business perfectly.
No it doesn't, you'd soon find yourself without enough customers to keep the business afloat, if you kick out everyone for any little thing that offends you.
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JMich: Would you still object to a change of "Check out my new vid homies!", since that is also censorship.
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xyem: Depends.

If the staff member said "This could easily be offensive. Can I change it to 'homies' instead?" (and nothing else like 'and if you say no, you'll be banned') then no, I wouldn't object because the author is effectively changing it (they simply doesn't have the direct power to).

If the staff just went and changed it, then I would (or I suppose, do) object.
Main reason I used the n-word (look, I'm changing my previous post, I'm a self-censor) is the fact that I think almost all of us find it offensive. I can try to make thread titles using the f-word, the c-word, the mf-word and a whole lot of others that will retain their meaning even if changed. Would you still object to changing any of those words without first asking the poster if he minds?
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JMich: So I'll call out HYPOCRISY on you xyem.
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xyem: Sorry, I don't understand how or where I have been hypocritical. Can you make it clearer please?
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xyem: My issue isn't with JudasIscariot, at all.
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JMich: Reverting the change done by someone is a blow to that someone's authority, no matter how much or how little authority he has.
Replace "someone" with "Judas", and you are asking for the community to think that any action by Judas may not be an action GOG.com welcomes.