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wvpr: I think the complaints about U8 and U9 have less to do with their standalone merits and more to do with how much they discarded from their predecessors. U8 was meant to be a shocking challenge to the Avatar's values, but along the way it lost scope, ease of use, character personalities, and non-reflex gameplay, to highlight a few things. U9 was meant to bring the series to a fitting conclusion, but by all accounts it reduced the complex world of U7 to a handful of key characters and locations and one-dimensional, cliched, cobbled-together plot points. U7 was buggy and unfinished in many ways, but it transcended its limitations admirably. Discarding all that worked from U7, including basic Ultima continuity, meant the games needed to be home runs to justify all the changes. They weren't anywhere close to that. People wanted a proper sequel of U7's caliber that never came.
I never got this - I played Ultima 8 first, then Ultima 7, then Ultima 9. And Ultima 8 was a very strong game in its own right - how you can say it lost its ease of use when it was easier to play than Ultima VII? Ultima 8 was more focussed and more arcade-like while keeping the interactive world alive. It was a different and new world to explore as well and while it was nowhere near as big as Britannia, and while there were far less means to travel, it was still a solid and atmospheric game. Yes, Ultima VII was better, but it was still fun.

I do agree that the games made trade offs - Ultima 9 had a big world again, and a lot of interactive items - but the game's story became more simplistic. Its values became black & white and the story was as if taken out of a children's book. Best combat of all Ultima games so far, some excellent locations (especially the pirate port) and the atmosphere was solid as well (not to mention the music was brilliant - why is no-one ever giving it any merit there?) but the story is a bit of a let down. Having said this, it's still more fun than most console crap out there.

And speaking of music: listen to this and tell me it's not beautiful. Having played Ultima Online for hundreds of hours, I've grown to love it (UO used U9's music in later expansion packs):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skZLZhuWbvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQbGm8e5v_E
And Ultima 8 was a very strong game in its own right - how you can say it lost its ease of use when it was easier to play than Ultima VII?
Ultima 8's controls sort of have issues. Ultima 7's did too, except Ultima 7 wasn't really combat oriented or requiring much precision. Granted I don't think either have particularly terrible controls from what I've seen, and nothing about the controls in 4-6 bugged me either (6's mouse movement is sort of weird to some people; 4 and 5 have a lot of keyboard commands but I play roguelikes so...)

Ultima 7's sequel are sort of weird in the sense that it kind of had three more-or-less direct sequels -- Underworld 2, Serpent Isle, and Pagan, in that story chronology. So you have a situation where the most direct story sequel is technically a different series, the direct gameplay sequel isn't considered a sequel, and Pagan plays more like the underworld games in the sense that it's single-character and more actiony -- essentially it's like a Zelda game -- but it IS called the direct sequel.

So I wonder how things would've panned out if they'd called Serpent Isle Ultima 8 and Ultima 8 Worlds of Ultima: Pagan?

I've also noticed that most people broadly dismissing console games don't actually play them.
Post edited September 11, 2011 by amccour
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Red_Avatar: And Ultima 8 was a very strong game in its own right - how you can say it lost its ease of use when it was easier to play than Ultima VII? Ultima 8 was more focussed and more arcade-like while keeping the interactive world alive. It was a different and new world to explore as well and while it was nowhere near as big as Britannia, and while there were far less means to travel, it was still a solid and atmospheric game. Yes, Ultima VII was better, but it was still fun.
U7 was straightforward. It had major problems with window and inventory management, but it was functional and consistent. You could go where you clicked and let your characters handle the details.

U8 forced you to spend time lining up the Avatar with his destinations, parrying attacks, timing jumps (and calculating jump distance before the patch), recovering from staggers, and performing complex tasks to prepare spells, none of which was in U7. And its inventory management was as bad as U7's without extra characters to spread out the pain. It's like dealing with Resident Evil controls in what should be a pure point-and-click adventure game.

I remember a bunch of instant death spots where slightly different ground would crumble away and dump the Avatar into lava. That's not the kind of gameplay U7 fans were looking for. U8: Pagan was more like Pagan: The Avatar Adventure.

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Red_Avatar: Ultima 9 had a big world again, and a lot of interactive items - but the game's story became more simplistic. Its values became black & white and the story was as if taken out of a children's book. Best combat of all Ultima games so far, some excellent locations (especially the pirate port) and the atmosphere was solid as well (not to mention the music was brilliant - why is no-one ever giving it any merit there?) but the story is a bit of a let down. Having said this, it's still more fun than most console crap out there.
The simplistic story was the main reason I didn't try to play this game. U7 has such a rich setting, I didn't want to see it thrown aside. Same reason I never tracked down the Wing Commander movie or enjoyed Starlancer. When you're in the middle of a compelling fantasy epic, you don't want the conclusion to forget half of what's come before and dumb down what's left. Gameplay isn't enough to redeem that.

U7 combat was messy, but it was still in the overhead tactical tradition of previous games. U8 and U9 switched to reflex combat. Whether it was good or bad combat, that's a major departure, one that not all Ultima fans were hoping for.

Maybe the best way to look at it is how all the time and effort devoted to the arcade and pretty pictures could have been used to make a more traditional Ultima without so many other compromises. The last two games were incomplete hybrids instead of the pinnacle of everything Origin had accomplished over the years.
U7's combat was overhead. There was nothing tactical about it, it was more or less impossible to control, and I'm pretty sure that removing it altogether would have changed very, very little. Which I'm sure would have made fans of U6's tactical combat quite irritated.

And would probably have made me irritated except I realized a very long time ago that U7 is, in fact, U7, and not U6. I don't really go into games expecting anything. Game devs are free to do whatever they like, and any sort of finished product is free to be whatever it ends up being.
I honestly don't expect to see Ultima 7, 8, or 9 on GOG. Of all of the Ultima games those are the ones with the most compatibility problems with modern OSes. (At least in my experience.) I'm not sure what kind of agreement GOG had to make to distribute games with Doxbox, but if they could do the same with Ultima 7 and Exult that would be great.

BTW, I'm new to GOG and I gotta admit I'm in love with what they are doing. I've already downloaded like 20-30 games.
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amccour: U7's combat was overhead. There was nothing tactical about it, it was more or less impossible to control, and I'm pretty sure that removing it altogether would have changed very, very little. Which I'm sure would have made fans of U6's tactical combat quite irritated.
I tend to agree. But emphasizing reflex gameplay is a bigger departure from the series than making combat even less interactive. Somehow, making the game more hands-on took away the free-flowing feeling of past Ultimas.
I was just playing Ultima 8 for a few more hours. I'm not really sure I'd call the combat particularly "reflexy." It's not like Gothic 1/2 where you REALLY need to get good with timing and dodging to not die.

I am sort of curious to play it without the patch sometime, just to see how bad the jumping was originally. As I said. Moving platforms are a pain in Crusader, and that was a *much* smoother version of the engine. When does it start getting heavy on the jumping puzzles, anyway?
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amccour: I was just playing Ultima 8 for a few more hours. I'm not really sure I'd call the combat particularly "reflexy." It's not like Gothic 1/2 where you REALLY need to get good with timing and dodging to not die.
It's more arcade if you take the interface as a whole. From what I remember, combat mainly came down to blocking until there was an opening. Good stats and equipment made most battles easier, although those eye things were nasty right up to the end.

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amccour: I am sort of curious to play it without the patch sometime, just to see how bad the jumping was originally. As I said. Moving platforms are a pain in Crusader, and that was a *much* smoother version of the engine. When does it start getting heavy on the jumping puzzles, anyway?
See how he tries to land as close to the mouse cursor as possible? Imagine that he jumps a fixed distance no matter what you do. So if you are aiming at a platform big enough for one Avatar, you'd better jump at exactly the right time, or you'll miss completely. Now make the platforms move.

I remember a lot of jumping on the way to the wind titan. There were also some extended hopping sequences in a few water zones, especially one tough area you can fall into from the overland wilderness.
See I haven't actually tried blocking yet maybe that is why I keep dying.

Anyway, I remember Crusader had this fun thing where the perspective got sort of weird with some of its moving platforms, so I think something is like, I dunno, in front of me but lower, but it's really off to the side. Also I found it incredibly easy to overshoot jumps in Crusader.

And by remember I mean I played it like in June why do I sound like I am reminiscing about my childhood god I am so HOW DOES TIME WORK
While Ultima is my favorite series, and I'm as passionate about the series as a "Trekker" is about Star Trek, I enjoyed 8 and 9, but feel Ultima VII The Black Gate was definitely the high point of the series. Ultima VII was a world full of real characters who had their own schedules. It did not suffer from the "eternal 7-11" feel of so many games in which people exist only to stand in their shops and sell you items at all hours of the day. The tradition of stores having hours started in V and VII, but it really hit its stride in Black Gate. You could stand in the Blue Boar Tavern, for example, and watch people come in for their dinner, yell at the barkeeps and eat everything from bars of pure butter (A Britannias specialty) to baked potatoes, to bread to meat, you could get a job picking pumpkins or baking bread if you ever got tired of killing things for a living, and you could even work as a vice cop, capturing drugs and bringing them to the authorities. When you left a town, the people carried on without you, and did not only work to please the player. You really felt you were in a complete living world, and your companions even engaged in small talk. VII Pt.2 sadly, already started to break with this feel and felt more like an ongoing play than a living world. It was highly linear and characters would "appear onstage" when they were needed as part of the story, then conveniently disappear when their part was done. Everything felt forced and scripted, although the engine was the same as Ultima VII The Black Gate. The world was bigger, with an entire empire's worth of cities built underground, but they were either abandoned or populated by Gargoyles. While these gargoyles did not usually attack the party, most of them were unable to speak, and only a few were able to help you in any way.
VIII was more of a physical challenge with arcade-like controls, and IX was more of an adventure game than a role-playing game. One of the interesting things about IX, however, is that (if you knew the right control) it was the first Ultima to actually be playable in first-person POV even outdoor in the towns and across the land. All the other first-person Ultimas were either underworlds or dungeon portions of the first five games. It really tried hard to be the ending Ultima should have had, but it was rushed out the door partially completed and left many plot holes that were never filled. (I won't go into any spoilers here, so I'll leave it at unfilled plot holes.) Still, it was far more of an adventure game than a true RPG. Also in VIII and IX the Avatar has to travel alone, and the banter and chatter from the companions was one of the most endearing parts of the Ultima series (and still is now that Ultima Forever and GOG are reviving the classic series). Will there ever be another Ultima? (BioWare, I'm looking at you.) If so, hopefully daily schedules and the party will be back, and I wouldn't mind baking a few loaves of bread and doing some farming in a new Ultima.
I think a lot of it has to do with the... next game in the series should be like the previous game with the series but with better graphics mentality that has poisoned the industry since... well since there were sequels...

Even Witcher 1 to Witcher 2 received similar complains from some fans.

Personally I believe in giving a company the benefit of the doubt if they have proven themselves to me in the past (or not giving it to them if they have failed me multiple times in the row).

God I am certainly hoping BioWare stays away from anything and everything that I still hold dear and care for. Last thing I need is someone streamlining it, making 100 DLCs for it, butchering the story, giving me weak NPCs and then telling me this is EXACTLY what I wanted to play all along...
Post edited September 13, 2011 by Ebon-Hawk
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Ebon-Hawk: I think a lot of it has to do with the... next game in the series should be like the previous game with the series but with better graphics mentality that has poisoned the industry since... well since there were sequels...
U8 and U9 were prettier, but they threw out a lot of fundamental principles that had guided Ultima design up until then. If they'd been more of the same gameplay with a story as good as U7's, would they have been less popular than what we got? Monkey Island 2 isn't a tired retread despite using the same basic game engine as 1.

It's like Heroes of Might & Magic 4. New settings and gameplay can freshen up a franchise, but when it's executed poorly and incompletely, all it does is alienate many of the fans hoping for a proper sequel. Pagan was a great concept. Alienate the Avatar, make him stand alone, lead him down a non-virtuous path as he tries to take the right actions. It didn't deliver.
I've always enjoyed Ultima 8. I really like the atmosphere and the world of Pagan and the idea of Avatar breaking the whole world to his own needs is interesting.

I do understand, why people were put off byt it, as it is more of an adventure game than an RPG. And the biggest gameplay flaws, like the precise jumps were pretty effectively removed by patches. In the end U8 is among my favourite Ultima titles.
Well, given GOG announced that there'd be six more classic EA titles coming to the site, and we've now had five (Ultima 1+2+3, Ultima 4+5+6, Nox, Populous and Wing Commander 3), so unless the next EA classic is Ultima 7+8+9, then you're plum out of luck, for the forseeable future, I think.
GOG has been doing an excellent job of putting out these releases, so I think it's basically a no-brainer that the next Ultimas will be part of the next set. I was almost disappointed about the last one in the set not being an Ultima but it's Wing Commander III! How can anyone be disappointed by WCIII? I kind of hope against another trilogy as, if they are true to form, that would be The Black Gate as the only VII, VIII, and IX. I'd rather see them separately released with The Complete Ultima VII as its own product. Perhaps they really are working on getting the add-ons an add-ins, so that is why they are not continuing the Ultima series yet. Ultima VII had two games, each with an add-in, and without all of it, the story will be missing elements. For example, there are some things in IX that will be completely strange to the player if he or she has not gone through the Forge of Virtue add-in and the second part of VII, Serpent's Isle. So I for one am willing to wait for the next Ultima set as long as it is complete and done right.