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And it goes on and on... my download speed is about 15% of what I get on GoG. Does anybody besides me think that's nuts for a service that I can't even really use with the games I bought (because they're singleplayer), let alone want to use.
Post edited February 26, 2009 by hansschmucker
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hansschmucker: Microsoft isn't really involved with the publishing. You can take it or leave it. Games are only confined to Windows on technical grounds.

Games for Windows Live?
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hansschmucker: Update: Argh... I've forgotten that Steam can't have games installed anywhere but in it's program folder, which is on my system drive and not my games.

I was always under the impression that you could change the default directory.
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hansschmucker: And what's that Steam background program doing in my services list?

Last time I checked it's a service for downloading and playing games.
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hansschmucker: Update: Well, Steam can't create desktop icons, so I can't test the "official" oneclick method, but launching the games directly (which at least works) takes 15 seconds to authenticate before the game launches and doesn't quit Steam after I close the game.
Wow, 15 seconds is an eternity.
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hansschmucker: Update: I'm also getting an invitation to some group over and over again and can't figure out to get rid of it WITHOUT joining.
If you look under the communities tab on the invite page there is a nice ignore button. You and it will become good friends.
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hansschmucker: Update: I think I remember now what I disliked most about steam: The default themes. God, this thing is ugly. I finally found some replacement skins, but there's apparently no official standard, so usually ones from last year work while older ones produce horrible graphics corruption.
Yea, it's hideous. Which is why I downloaded and used the vista theme which has always worked fine for me (ironically I'm running it on a XP).
Note: I'm being a bit silly with all this. I've known people who have had nothing but grief with Steam but I've used it on a multiplicity of computers with no problems, including an Linix OS. If it is that big of a problem try Impulse.
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hansschmucker: Well, you do know that I don't like such services in general. Maybe because I'm not a "hardcore" PC gamer. I just want games. I don't want to sign into some stupid service just to play a game.

If you're not a "hardcore" gamer, there's all the more reason for you have a user friendly interface like Steam. Easy to use digital store for purchasing games, automatic updates eliminating the need to search for patches, and a community system allowing for quick organization of games with your friends. I almost feel like I should be a shill for Valve trying to convince you non-believers.
I think you just have a outdated or badly configured system if Steam is causing you so many issues.
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hansschmucker: Microsoft isn't really involved with the publishing. You can take it or leave it. Games are only confined to Windows on technical grounds.
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lotr-sam0711: Games for Windows Live?

Which is not a service I use or would ever consider using. I think it's the same kind of abomination as Steam
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hansschmucker: Update: Argh... I've forgotten that Steam can't have games installed anywhere but in it's program folder, which is on my system drive and not my games.
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lotr-sam0711: I was always under the impression that you could change the default directory.

You can move the directory, but it's just nothing that I anticipated. Just another minor annoyance, no biggy, but an annoyance never the less.
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hansschmucker: And what's that Steam background program doing in my services list?
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lotr-sam0711: Last time I checked it's a service for downloading and playing games.

SYSTEM BACKGROUND service. The things that usually run your web server, not the application.
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hansschmucker: Update: Well, Steam can't create desktop icons, so I can't test the "official" oneclick method, but launching the games directly (which at least works) takes 15 seconds to authenticate before the game launches and doesn't quit Steam after I close the game.
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lotr-sam0711: Wow, 15 seconds is an eternity.

Longer than I would stare at my wallpaper with non-Steam games. Again, small annoyance. It's also not being helped by the hideously designed dialog that appears.
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hansschmucker: Update: I'm also getting an invitation to some group over and over again and can't figure out to get rid of it WITHOUT joining.
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lotr-sam0711: If you look under the communities tab on the invite page there is a nice ignore button. You and it will become good friends.

I just disabled anything that read "friends" or "groups" and apparently now it's gone.
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hansschmucker: Update: I think I remember now what I disliked most about steam: The default themes. God, this thing is ugly. I finally found some replacement skins, but there's apparently no official standard, so usually ones from last year work while older ones produce horrible graphics corruption.
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lotr-sam0711: Yea, it's hideous. Which is why I downloaded and used the vista theme which has always worked fine for me (ironically I'm running it on a XP).

Can you give me an url?
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lotr-sam0711: Note: I'm being a bit silly with all this. I've known people who have had nothing but grief with Steam but I've used it on a multiplicity of computers with no problems, including an Linix OS. If it is that big of a problem try Impulse.

I don't want to use any service like that: I just want to buy and download... like ...you know... on GoG.com.
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hansschmucker: Well, you do know that I don't like such services in general. Maybe because I'm not a "hardcore" PC gamer. I just want games. I don't want to sign into some stupid service just to play a game.
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fuNGoo: If you're not a "hardcore" gamer, there's all the more reason for you have a user friendly interface like Steam. Easy to use digital store for purchasing games, automatic updates eliminating the need to search for patches, and a community system allowing for quick organization of games with your friends. I almost feel like I should be a shill for Valve trying to convince you non-believers.
I think you just have a outdated or badly configured system if Steam is causing you so many issues.

For me that hardly qualifies as user friendly. An icon in my start menu to launch the game: that's userfriendly. Updates can be done by the game itself. Many games are doing it and it works fine, without forcing users to install a thirdparty service.
The system is Windows7 and it definitely is properly configured. Some of the behaviour may be silently discarded on systems that don't have a debugger, but that doesn't mean that they are acceptable.
Post edited February 26, 2009 by hansschmucker
Ah, so that's the problem... You actually don't WANT to like the program whatever it takes. Well... Carry on then.
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Fenixp: Ah, so that's the problem... You actually don't WANT to like the program whatever it takes. Well... Carry on then.

Exactly! (Isn't that what I've been saying in almost every single post?) And I object to being forced to use them if I want to access certain games.
However, the problems I described are real and there and they wouldn't show Steam in the best light even if I would want to use it.
Update: Couldn't find a Vista (Aero) theme, but at least I found a Vista/Black theme. Now it looks like RealPlayer, ca. 2001
Update: Got the "service failure" message for the fifth time now. This is getting boring.
Post edited February 26, 2009 by hansschmucker
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Fenixp: Ah, so that's the problem... You actually don't WANT to like the program whatever it takes. Well... Carry on then.

It really is hopeless trying to convince someone who already sets out to justify his preconceived biases.
I'm just saying that the hate is completely irrational and the angle he's arguing from is flawed no matter how much he tries to come up with reasons. He doesn't want to rely on ANY extra software that's not necessary to running the game. What does it really matter in the end? Does it really interfere with your experience while actually playing the game?
If you NEED DOS box to play the game then it's okay? Who determines when the standard demands the need of a certain piece of software to play games. What if one day ALL games appeared only on Steam of GFWL or some other digital distribution system? Presumably you'll stop playing videogames forever?
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lotr-sam0711: Yea, it's hideous. Which is why I downloaded and used the vista theme which has always worked fine for me (ironically I'm running it on a XP).
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hansschmucker: Can you give me an url?

here you go
And like I said I was mostly kidding. Sucks that you are having so many problems.
Post edited February 26, 2009 by lotr-sam0711
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Fenixp: Ah, so that's the problem... You actually don't WANT to like the program whatever it takes. Well... Carry on then.
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fuNGoo: It really is hopeless trying to convince someone who already sets out to justify his preconceived biases.
I'm just saying that the hate is completely irrational and the angle he's arguing from is flawed no matter how much he tries to come up with reasons. He doesn't want to rely on ANY extra software that's not necessary to running the game. What does it really matter in the end? Does it really interfere with your experience while actually playing the game?
If you NEED DOS box to play the game then it's okay? Who determines when the standard demands the need of a certain piece of software to play games. What if one day ALL games appeared only on Steam of GFWL or some other digital distribution system? Presumably you'll stop playing videogames forever?

Great, the system swallowed my answer. So I'll post the gist again:
1. Yes I'm biased, but that doesn't mean that my argument is completely irrational. Forcing customers into a service is never a good strategy. It works well for those of you who want such a service anyway, but for the rest, it's just a major annoyance.
2. DOSBOX is a compatibility environment that only does what needs to be done. It doesn't try to enforce policies, it doesn't try to take control of your system, it doesn't try to force you into using it.
3. Exclusives are a construct that I do not like, because they are by their very nature uncompetitive.
4. Steam might work for you, but what if you wanted a game from another provider? Or maybe 10 others? Would it still work? Wouldn't you rather still buy from Steam, even if it is more expensive? That's what I mean by uncompetitive.
I'll add what I had written down before lateron, but that's the important part for now.
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hansschmucker: Can you give me an url?
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lotr-sam0711: here you go
And like I said I was mostly kidding. Sucks that you are having so many problems.

Thanks, that's a lot easier on my eyes.Just curious, is anybody else having issues with the builtin browser? The amount of stuttering I get whenever I scroll is really quite irritating.
Download speed has now dropped to 80k :(
Post edited February 26, 2009 by hansschmucker
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lotr-sam0711: Games for Windows Live?
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hansschmucker: Which is not a service I use or would ever consider using. I think it's the same kind of abomination as Steam

Unfotunately you'll get it and have to live with it if you accidentally buy a retail game that has GFWL tag in the box pretty much the same way if you accidentally buy retail game that uses steam.
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fuNGoo: What if one day ALL games appeared only on Steam of GFWL or some other digital distribution system? Presumably you'll stop playing videogames forever?

Most certainy, or I would just pirate then to not have to deal with that mallware. Fortunately we have GOG.com so I don't have to do either.
Post edited February 26, 2009 by Petrell
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hansschmucker: Actually I did try it... but I'm not really interested in online games, which makes the whole thing more of an annoyance than anything else.
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Fenixp: And what exactly was the problem with it? It doesn't really eat up system resources, you don't even have to launch it, since it can autolaunch after start and autologin... On top of that, it automatically patches all your games and you have all your games accessible from wherever there's connection to the internet. As a price, games call home sometimes - but still, you can play in offline mode.
You said Steam is monopolising the industry - so is Microsoft and I doubt you're only playing games compatible with multiple operating systems

Well the price is that you are complete prisoner of Steam... forever, that you sign a blank check, give them your money and hope they will be nice enough to let you play your game when you want to.
The problem with DRM is that you are at the total mercy of the one controlling the activation servers. If you can play the game you bought it's only because of their "good will" and they can change their mind anytime they.
-if they want to prevent you from playing a game before a certain date, even though you legally buy it...they can.
-if they want to prevent you from playing a game after you move to a country where the game is not sold, or in which the distributor doesn't have distribution rights... they can. (I know that Steam don't do it...yet... but they could and they might be forced to)
-if they want to force you play only a censored version depending of the country you live in... they can. (I wonder if you buy Witcher from the US on Steam if you have access to the uncensored version or have only access to the censored US one)
-if there is a legal dispute between the creator and the distributor or a legal dispute between the creators and they want to prevent peoples from buying/playing the game as long as the trial is not over...they can.
-if they want to prevent you from being able to resell you game...they can.
-and of course if they goes under and "forget" (or for third party games, are not legally authorized to) to release the vaporware activation removing patch (that is promised via a random forum post but never anywhere officially in the EULA or even in the FAQ)... well too bad for you and for the games you had the bad idea to buy.
It's like if you were buying a car and that in the sale agreement it was written that every time you want to start you car(or at least every time you change your address) you have to phone your car dealer and ask for his kind permission (permission he can refuse), that he can immobilize or even take back you car (of course without giving you your money back) whenever he feel like it and that you won't have anything to say against that... would you accept such a deal ?
I don't have anything against Steam as a distribution I definitely agree that it's one of the best but I definitely have something against DRM. And if it means having to update myself my games and wait for them to come to GoG before buying them then so be it.
I just hope that after his DICE interview, good old Gabe will put his money where his mouth is and start releasing DRM-free games or at least remove DRM from older games. (Yeah I know about the very few DRM-free games sold on Steam, but they are DRM-free for technical reasons not by choice)
Post edited February 26, 2009 by Gersen
If you consider all the DRM that the software houses have resorted to use, Steam's is one of the least intrusive, it's already been said.
What I really don't like about Steam though, is that you have to run all your game through their program.
I could understand if it was only a one-time autentication of your game after you downloaded it, or having to use their client to update your games or play online......but why the HELL am I supposed to use their program to run everything? Even the single games, for God's sake!
This is like if everytime you wanted to use a public bathroom you'd have to change your pants with those provided by its owner.
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Grog: If you consider all the DRM that the software houses have resorted to use, Steam's is one of the least intrusive, it's already been said.
What I really don't like about Steam though, is that you have to run all your game through their program.
I could understand if it was only a one-time autentication of your game after you downloaded it, or having to use their client to update your games or play online......but why the HELL am I supposed to use their program to run everything? Even the single games, for God's sake!
This is like if everytime you wanted to use a public bathroom you'd have to change your pants with those provided by its owner.

And the least intrusive is Impulse. you only need to run it to Install or Upgrade (or when you buy a game). you dont have to open Impulse to play the game you bought.
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Grog: If you consider all the DRM that the software houses have resorted to use, Steam's is one of the least intrusive, it's already been said.
What I really don't like about Steam though, is that you have to run all your game through their program.
I could understand if it was only a one-time autentication of your game after you downloaded it, or having to use their client to update your games or play online......but why the HELL am I supposed to use their program to run everything? Even the single games, for God's sake!
This is like if everytime you wanted to use a public bathroom you'd have to change your pants with those provided by its owner.
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Shadowdragoon: And the least intrusive is Impulse. you only need to run it to Install or Upgrade (or when you buy a game). you dont have to open Impulse to play the game you bought.

Actually, the least intrusive is GOG, no client software or DRM at all. Second least would probably be Direct2Drive, which doesn't need a client, but some of the games do have DRM. Then comes Impulse, GameTap and Steam
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hansschmucker: The system is Windows7 and it definitely is properly configured. Some of the behaviour may be silently discarded on systems that don't have a debugger, but that doesn't mean that they are acceptable.

What? Since when does it make sense to establish reliable criticisms when testing on a Windows 7 Beta installation? Windows 7 didn't even work with my freaking anti virus software. I was wondering why you were having so many problems until I saw that part.
Try something else- like NOT Windows 7 or Vista. :P