Except for Mud. But no one likes Mud.

Yes the sweeping the floor quest was truly worth it.

Nobody has truly played Risen if they did the monastery over the camp. The monastery was really dry.

One has only truly played Risen when they've done both ;)

Hmm. I see what you mean, although these things were among those that I especially liked in the earlier titles, especially Gothic 1. There is a sense of freedom, and gritty realism, in that game that makes it special. The attitude of the other prisoners contributes to that. Basically, Gothic 1 is a game with absolutely zero handholding - you're thrown into a hostile environment, you have to prove youself, but you also have a lot freedom to do so, many opportunities, your choices matter, and starting so low makes raising high at the end all the more sweet.

I guess the "lack of direction" that you see in the first games is (in my eyes) the freedom, challenge, and realistic atmosphere that I enjoyed. It's the same thing, but viewed with different preferences. Personally, I feel a bit sad that about the way the Gothic series has developed; I think it started extremely promising, but gradually lost the things that made it special. I can understand that people with different preferences will see that differently though. :)

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Personally I thought it to be 20 hours of my life I want back. I would have paid double the price of that game to know there and then that it was going to be so awful, and that the ending is so bad there's no point seeing it through.

Mhmm I see what you're saying but my Demon's Souls argument still stands that it's about the fact that there is no handhloding and you are thrown into a hostile environment. It's the fact that Gothic does not want you to succeed everything it does to not hol your hand is meant to hinder you, not improve you. In DS the no direction is to make you a better player while giving you nothing it shows that you need skill to beat it and, it rewards you for every mis-step with knowledge, but Gothic doesn't. Sure it feels great when you've overcome the odds but all you get is an ending the game doesn't want you to have, a victory the game doesn't want you to savor.

So it's not that i didn't like the lack of handholding it's the fact that the game hates you and does not want you to succeed.

Wasn't it Dusty?

One of my favourite gaming dialogues of all time is when you run through that guy's house who built it in the wrong place. "I hate them. I can't tell you how much I hate them."
That awkward delivery and the hilarity of the situation never fails to crack me up.

I didn't play Demon's Souls unfortunately, so it's a bit difficult for me to understand the difference you're explaining.

Have you played Morrowind? If so, I'd be interested in how you felt with this game, because imho it shares a lot with Gothic 1 with regard to the things we're discussing here. You're put into an environment where you have no friends and where many people outright hate you, you're given a lot of freedom (and little direction), and you have to prove yourself in a mostly hostile (but complex, well-designed, and imho very interesting) environment.

I liked it more than the early Gothics as it does hit many of the same beats but in this case you have a definite goal and you are rewarded when you do things. When it comes to atmosphere I think the more dark nature of it kinda comes into just the way the graphics are done but Morrowind wants you to succeed for example when at the beginning you are told to go to Balmora you aren't given any help as to where it is but what you do get is roadsigns and people to direct you they are making it feel more like an adventure. This is different than in Gothic where the quest givers know where you have to go to do something but they won't tell you where to go. Finding a city that you are helped into finding is much better than having to kill X monster by going to Y location with almost no indication as to the general area of Y.

I never could get into the Gothic Series, being forced into a male human with no choice just kills the feeling of an open world WRPG for me so playing it it just niggled me with the feeling: if the game offers choices then why am I playing a Human male, I never play that when I'm given the choice.

I'm sure there must be a nude patch around somewhere. There's one for every game.

BURN the HERETIC.

Gothic 4 does not exist