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GameRager: Why can't they amend the law then to make exceptions? Not drop or cancel out the law perse.
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Psyringe: Well, which kind of amendment would you propose specifically? As far as I can see, any amendment that _partially_ lifts the ban would entail the same problems - with regard to foreign affairs as well as domestically - as lifting the whole ban.

As others noted already, it's a complicated subject. The current situation is a historically grown juridical mess which, despite being a mess, still works rather well in most cases - whereas any attempt of "cleaning it up" incurs substantial risks for very little actual gain.

I can see where you're coming from though. And I'm not convinced that banning symbols of an undesirable ideology is a good way of dealing with it. But I can also see how it ended up being this way and why it'd be risky to change it now.
Just an amendment to the law allowing satirical usage of such symbols in media. Like games/etc. Of course there'd have to be oversight/controls in place but it'd be better than what's in place now.
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GameRager: Just an amendment to the law allowing satirical usage of such symbols in media. Like games/etc. Of course there'd have to be oversight/controls in place but it'd be better than what's in place now.
Such an amendment wouldn't actually change much (with very few exceptions, games clearly don't count as satirical usage). In any case I'd say that its advantages and disadvantages are about even, and if such an amendment had been made by the allies at the end of the de-nazification process in Germany, no one would question it. However, for an amendment that would have to be done now, it doesn't bring enough advantages to outweigh the risks - at least that's how the politicians will see it. It's a topic that no politician in Germany would actually lobby for as he/she could only lose.
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GameRager: Just an amendment to the law allowing satirical usage of such symbols in media. Like games/etc. Of course there'd have to be oversight/controls in place but it'd be better than what's in place now.
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Psyringe: Such an amendment wouldn't actually change much (with very few exceptions, games clearly don't count as satirical usage). In any case I'd say that its advantages and disadvantages are about even, and if such an amendment had been made by the allies at the end of the de-nazification process in Germany, no one would question it. However, for an amendment that would have to be done now, it doesn't bring enough advantages to outweigh the risks - at least that's how the politicians will see it. It's a topic that no politician in Germany would actually lobby for as he/she could only lose.
Parodical I think I meant. And also the gamer lobby could possibly support it, ot free speech groups in Germany. :\
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GameRager: Parodical I think I meant. And also the gamer lobby could possibly support it, ot free speech groups in Germany. :\
Hmmm. I don't think there is a "gamer lobby" in Germany - even if it exists, it certainly isn't a political factor right now. The few media-relevant people who _do_ appreciate games have their plates pretty full with convincing politicians that video games do _not_ cause amok runs and school massacres (which some members of the conservative party claim they do). If these people tried to stand up for free nazi symbols they would shoot themselves in the foot spectacularly. In a situation where games are used as a scapegoat for several problems of this society already, the only people who speak _for_ games would then be easily associated with neo-nazis, i.e. the only political force that is detested by all others. That's political suicide.

There is no specific "free speech" movement in Germany. Free speech is guaranteed through the Basic Law (which serves as a constitution) anyway. As in all countries, the basic right of free speech is then limited by other laws, especially youth protection, morality, slander/libel, classified information, etc. Each country has its own peculiarities with regards to such limits, and a specific German peculiarity is that nazi ideology is a much more sensitive issue here than anywhere else, because (as the country from which this ideology originated and which committed atrocious crimes in its name) we have a specific responsibility to not tolerate it ever again. For 65 years now it has been a consensus among all political parties (except the neo-nazis) that this specific responsibility weighs in heavier as the "free speech" ideal (up to the point that stating the opinion that the Holocaust never happened, or was "only" one historic mass murder among others, constitutes a criminal act). Again: this has been a consensus among all democratic German parties for more than six decades. It's deeper ingrained in German culture than (for example) the right to bear arms is ingrained in the US culture. A couple of people who'd like to have uncensored nazi symbols in their video games are not going to change that.

As a side note, I don't think that the depiction of nazis and their symbols in most video games is parodical either. In most cases they are simply used as a cookie-cutter evil adversary, specifically one that is so well-known that no further explanation about its evilness is necessary, and one that is so immoral that any means to stop them are justified. In many cases nazis (as depicted in video games) are simply interchangeable with demons, both share the same game-relevant properties. id software actually made exactly that switch between the original "Wolfenstein 3d" and its successor "Doom". They didn't meant to do a satire or parody on nazis, they simply wanted an adversary for their game that would justify the carnage without putting any work in a backstory. Nazis and demons both fit the bill, but nazi depictions run into the aforementioned historically grown problems in Germany, so they chose demons for the later games.
Post edited December 04, 2011 by Psyringe
All I know is that in the U.S. regardless of the reason we try not to keep people from displaying things because it might upset someone. I guess as an american I don't "get" why this is tolerated by Germans who support free speech is all.

And yes it's parodical in some ways when they show the over-the-top bosses in the game I think.
So does this just mean that steam can sell it to people located in Germany now? I mean obviously they don't make physical copies of the game anymore, although I wish they did.
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anoffday: So does this just mean that steam can sell it to people located in Germany now? I mean obviously they don't make physical copies of the game anymore, although I wish they did.
I still have physical copies. As far as Steam goes though, the games aren't DRM protected once you download and install them that first time. The assets that you need are all DRM free.

Personally, I recommend using one of the newer engines anyways.
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anoffday: So does this just mean that steam can sell it to people located in Germany now? I mean obviously they don't make physical copies of the game anymore, although I wish they did.
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hedwards: I still have physical copies. As far as Steam goes though, the games aren't DRM protected once you download and install them that first time. The assets that you need are all DRM free.

Personally, I recommend using one of the newer engines anyways.
I'm sure there is a HUGE graphical overhaul package for the first Quake game(1GB for the regular high res stuff and like 4GB for the ultra high res package) which keeps the graphics the same but adds shadows/bump mapping/etc and makes for a great experience.
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hedwards: I still have physical copies. As far as Steam goes though, the games aren't DRM protected once you download and install them that first time. The assets that you need are all DRM free.

Personally, I recommend using one of the newer engines anyways.
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GameRager: I'm sure there is a HUGE graphical overhaul package for the first Quake game(1GB for the regular high res stuff and like 4GB for the ultra high res package) which keeps the graphics the same but adds shadows/bump mapping/etc and makes for a great experience.
Slightly OT, but I love Polymer for eDuke32.
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GameRager: I'm sure there is a HUGE graphical overhaul package for the first Quake game(1GB for the regular high res stuff and like 4GB for the ultra high res package) which keeps the graphics the same but adds shadows/bump mapping/etc and makes for a great experience.
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hedwards: Slightly OT, but I love Polymer for eDuke32.
Shame that it takes up so many resources eh? (And also that they haven't converted everything from polymost yet.)