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timppu: One clarification though: I think many such games (allowing or even promoting making backup copies of your installation disks) had other forms of DRM, e.g. requiring you to look up the manual in the beginning of the game.

In many cases, they even tried to make it harder for you to make photo-copies of your manual, e.g. using dark brown text on black background.
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jamyskis: I miss the Monkey Island wheel. That was copy protection done RIGHT.
I missed my Monkey Island wheel after it got lost, made the game unplayable... (did not have internet back then.)
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timppu: I could be mistaken, but doesn't that apply already to e.g. genetically-mutated crops and such? Ie. they are "copyrighted", because there has been so and so much R&D money that went into inventing a tomato that survives freezing temperatures, by adding a gene from a fish, or some such sh*t?

To me it depends if the original work required lots of money and/or research to come up. Some team coming up with the cure for cancer should benefit for their invention, at least for some years. But someone just patenting mouse triple-clicking in an user interface, something he invented one night intoxicated, probably shouldn't.

As for games, obviously they usually take quite some time and even money to develop, so they should be copyrighted IMHO.

It's not always easy of course. If it is something very useful and even important to the whole mankind, then at least only one company should not benefit from it alone, setting prices for it etc. For example, if someone made cold-fusion functional at last. Maybe the inventing team and the investors could be given some time to benefit from their invention, but after that it should probably become public domain.
You are describing Patent?
http://9gag.com/gag/298963

Piracy is piracy. Ignorance does more harm than good to your cause. Study some shit before you open your mouth.
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FraterPerdurabo: Now, now, don't be nasty. You should always tip unless the service was unsatisfactory (or just completely medicore, which counts as unsatisfactory).
The English aren't great tippers, but you should see France, for example. While I was studying there during my year abroad, a friend of mine made 4-5x as much from tips while working evening shifts in a pub than she did from her regular salary.
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Parvateshwar: I'll give you that, but in the US, if you are a waitress you make $3/hour (the minimum wage is $7). So while here it is a compliment to your good service, in the US it is all your going to get.

Edit: I looked it up and each state sets it's own wage for tipped employees, with half the minimum wage being the average and no state paying full minimum wage.
Besides the better wage in europe, people tend to give tips for good service anyway.
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JeCy: I see DRM talk and trash all the time on the interent. You can't goto a site that talks about games these days with out some thread about DRM popping up. Or boycotts of games cause of DRMs, Even GOGs slogan is DRM free.. (though I guess it gets a pass even though you have to log in, to access the games.. (how is that not drm as I have many games that are considered to have DRM.. (inputting a key, that doesn’t even need to be online which is DRM??)
Are we really going to go through this again? Do we have to lecture another person (or the same person?) about what DRM actually means?
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JeCy:
Your OP reminded me of something so after a bit of digging I managed to find it.

Back in the 70s almost all software was free. Freely developed, freely shared, freely transmitted. There was a core group of hobbyists who loved working with, on, and for computers and they collectively did some amazing things. However, their work was inaccessible to people who didn't know how to use a computer so it remained the best kept secret. Eventually, companies started getting patents for their software and the original hobbyists treated this new, patented software just as they treated everything else, freely used and freely traded. They were the original pirates.

By the late 80s, Apple and Microsoft forced most other small software developers out of business and had a virtual monopoly on the OS generation. That is, except for one group. The GNU Project was a continuation of that movement of free and fair use of software and was led by many of the original developers from the 60s and 70s. Despite attempts by Microsoft to control it, they are still strong and producing wonderful new things.

At the heart of this movement is the idea that if you put something on the internet, it should be free and unrestricted. Whether it be a song, a movie, a piece of software, or a video game, if it is on your computer you should be able to access it freely according to this movement. So while you might be at a complete loss as to why online piracy isn't viewed as a crime, it's because it harkens back to the days when computer software was freely used, freely accessed, and freely transmitted.

So, if you are sick of people pirating games, don't pirate. If you are tired of getting free software, then pay for it. If you hate people who pirate, write us a strongly worded letter along the lines of the original DRM dick: William Henry Gates III. I think the two of you have a lot in common.

http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html
Post edited April 12, 2012 by Parvateshwar
Some interesting comments,, Others not soo much...



I will just add,, Perhaps some should do a little fact checking and some US supreme court case law, one of being the napster battle, when the site was shut down, and people that had Pirated music, were subject to fines and criminal procesuction.. Just ask any of the 1000's of people that were subject to this.. cause it DID happen...

another recent win, was back in 2007, which further defined the act of piracy as being illegal.


While posting pictures about how piracy is copying and not illegial maybe cute, it hardly makes it law...



But outside of all that.. You see the direction gaming is going,, Less and less single player, and more always online, or MMO style games.. this is a direct result of those that part take, in piracy. and the ignorance of those that are part of the multi-billion dollar problem as a result.


I would think gamers would want to unite to end piracy, and improve the gaming industry, and sharing, along with purchase as a whole.. But i guess this thread is evidence that it is not the case..

Cause everytime another game that has online only, or no lan support comes along the pipe.. you can rest assured that piracy was the number one reason for this change..




.
Post edited April 12, 2012 by JeCy
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Parvateshwar: At the heart of this movement is the idea that if you put something on the internet, it should be free and unrestricted. Whether it be a song, a movie, a piece of software, or a video game, if it is on your computer you should be able to access it freely according to this movement. So while you might be at a complete loss as to why online piracy isn't viewed as a crime, it's because it harkens back to the days when computer software was freely used, freely accessed, and freely transmitted.
and what of all the content that was never put on the internet by the orginal publisher? Not to mention that was all in a time before a song, or movie, or even a decent sized peice of software could even be transfered over the interent.. which really didn't even exist outside of BB boards..


But clearly you speak as someone that has NEVER had any intelectual property stolen... and most likely you will never create something that would.. Perhaps you should think in terms of what if it was your property...
Usually never do this, but farting is really air pollution. :-) [check effects of ch4 on o3 in upper atmosphere.]

Edit to add, as I couldn't resist: Outhouse gases, are greenhouse gases!

Living green?
Post edited April 12, 2012 by Dischord
An opinion issued by the Second Circuit just yesterday is rather apropos: copying is not stealing. It can still be illegal, but it's not theft.
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JeCy: But clearly you speak as someone that has NEVER had any intelectual property stolen... and most likely you will never create something that would.. Perhaps you should think in terms of what if it was your property...
And now the true purpose of this post has been revealed. The question is what did someone steal from you? Hopefully it wasn't a book or piece of literature and if it was, based on your entries here, whoever pirated it probably did you a favour.

Oh, and pirates didn't steal from you, it's still your idea. You will still have all the rights to whatever intellectual material you made. Someone bought it, made copies, and distributed them for free. No one is changing your original idea. No one is selling it to make money. And you got at least one customer for whatever it is you made.
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KyleKatarn: Basically what I've reasoned copyright to be is similar to this: A person plants a fruit tree on his property. Fine, no one else is depriving him of his fruit tree. Except that person wanted to plant that fruit tree to sell apples and he thinks too many other people are planting their own fruit trees that are similar to his (some of them are even giving apples to their family and neighbors!) They have their own apples and aren't interested in purchasing his unless he does something to make his apples better, like make apple pie. Copyright in this case would be forbidding other people from planting their own fruit trees using their own property.
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timppu: I could be mistaken, but doesn't that apply already to e.g. genetically-mutated crops and such? Ie. they are "copyrighted", because there has been so and so much R&D money that went into inventing a tomato that survives freezing temperatures, by adding a gene from a fish, or some such sh*t?

To me it depends if the original work required lots of money and/or research to come up. Some team coming up with the cure for cancer should benefit for their invention, at least for some years. But someone just patenting mouse triple-clicking in an user interface, something he invented one night intoxicated, probably shouldn't.

As for games, obviously they usually take quite some time and even money to develop, so they should be copyrighted IMHO.

It's not always easy of course. If it is something very useful and even important to the whole mankind, then at least only one company should not benefit from it alone, setting prices for it etc. For example, if someone made cold-fusion functional at last. Maybe the inventing team and the investors could be given some time to benefit from their invention, but after that it should probably become public domain.
This is what the discussion should be about, not whether or not copying is stealing (it clearly is not to me.) That's the main thing that I want to achieve. I posit that the burden of proof is on the ones who want to implement such restrictions whether or not these restrictions beneficially increase the whole pie or only funnels resources from the rest of the pie to a small piece of it. Even if these restrictions are proven to benefit, I still posit that it is not the role of government to make it compulsory. The burden of persuasion to potential customers should still be on those who want to sell. The website we are discussing on currently seems to have done a good job of doing this (though damn near ruined much of the goodwill because of lawsuits from the parent company.)

So is there any proof that these restrictions are beneficial?

My apologies for the late reply too. It's too nice of weather out lately.