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Hawk52: ...
Instead of a lengthy and angry reply, I'll say this: you're wrong.

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mpartel: One category of such ideas is essentially Vestin's "INSANE" idea of an international entertainment tax, possibly adjusted to be more democratic instead of comittee-based. It doesn't seem entirely insane to me.
Dude, that was the philosophical equivalent of mad science ;P !
On a more serious note, as most unified systems that control too much - it's probably too utopist.
Curiously enough - it sounds like a step in an anti-cyberpunk direction; Instead of a future where people are governed by corporations (a vision that isn't as far-fetched as it sounds), it would be a worldwide federation, with this "entertainment tax" covering one facet...

But if you take take a few steps further, you might as well tax EVERYTHING this way, escalating taxes to 100% of people's income, thus making money obsolete... and we do end up in a centrally planned communist utopia. People get everything they want but fulfill their part of the social contract by giving stuff in return...
Yup. All it needed was a tiny step further.

Of course - it could be a democratic utopia, where people would vote what content should be produced... but some of the same people would have to be the ones to produce it.

[i]"Let's say you work in an office. You see a really nice fancy pen left in a common area of the work place. You know it belongs to someone, and you estimate the pen is worth probably twenty dollars. You feel the desire to take the pen. Most, if not all of you, will secretly grab the pen. You won't go find the owner and ask where they got the pen. You'll take it outright, figuring "The owner must not care for it, having left it behind". If you do that, if you do not buy your own pen at whatever place sells it, you are a pirate. You have taken from someone else. Perhaps that pen business needs word of mouth to succeed. Not only have you taken someone' property but you also cost them direct business."
[/i]
Uhhh... all of us? No. I'm not stealing someone's pen for $20. I'll just buy a bic or borrow a pen or whatever. Even if you were under the FALSE impression that "everyone has a price", $20 is like 2 hours worth of minimum wage work. The fact that your price would be that low is just weird.... I'm glad I don't work with you.

"If your niece/daughter/son/whatever has ever come up to you with money, then forget the money, and you pocket it to "safeguard it", but will secretly spend the money on other things? You are a pirate."
Daughter/son?

Now you're stealing from KIDS, too? Do you have any decency at all?

But either way, I beg to differ with your assessment of this community: believe it or not, I expect that the overwhelming majority of us DO NOT steal from our co-workers or take money from children. GOGers, what say you?
I have to say, I think the stealing from co-workers and children example is a bad one - if I found a co-workers pen (even a $5 one) I'd give it to reception to find whose it is. If a kid gave me some money I'd give it back to them later (and if it was my niece/nephew/son/daughter I'd probably add a bit ;) )

The swapping floppies was a better example - sure, when I was a kid and had the amiga I did that. Doesn't mean it was right. Not that I'm making moral judgements on anyone who still does it - right or wrong can be a grey area.

I think most of us on GOG are here because we're willing to pay for games (if not then why not just go somewhere else?)

edited for getting the tags wrong [...]
and again - I must need more caffeine
Post edited July 24, 2011 by TrollumThinks
Y'arghhh?!?
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Hawk52: I still see piracy as a victimless "crime". In that the amount of people doing it will never be enough to seriously effect a product. There aren't enough people smart enough to even figure out how to actually do internet piracy.

Piracy is always used as a scapegoat for bad business. But you know, I grew up as a pro-wrestling fan. The king "Sport" of all bs. I know what BS is. And the only games that have piracy touted as a killer are games with with insane budgets due to reasons beyond game making, games that were terrible and bombed, or games that would never sell to recoop their investments.

You almost never see companies with great sales mention it. And you never see them complaining about a game from five years ago being pirated. It's a scapegoat reasoning behind subpar sales in the here and now.

It's much easier to go "The game didn't sell because of piracy!" then "The game didn't sell because of poor design and conceptual work".
Agreed 100% matey.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by GameRager
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Hawk52: The very act of taking someone else's property or work for your own selfish greed is piracy. We have *ALL* done it. So sitting here trying to take some type of moral high ground when you probably swapped CD's or floppy's back in the early day of PC's just makes you a hypocrite. And again, I'm pretty sure most of you did that at some point which is again piracy.
Now I admit that I've pirated before, but I no longer do that.

But because you are a sociopath and a thief, does not make that true of everyone else. As others have said, stealing from kids and coworkers makes you pretty fucking pathetic, and a sad excuse for a human being.

Edit: Hmm, or more likely you're just trolling, since I find it hard to believe anyone is that dumb for real. Not the stealing from kids part, but the bragging about it and assuming that everyone does that.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by kalirion
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Hawk52: The very act of taking someone else's property or work for your own selfish greed is piracy. We have *ALL* done it. So sitting here trying to take some type of moral high ground when you probably swapped CD's or floppy's back in the early day of PC's just makes you a hypocrite. And again, I'm pretty sure most of you did that at some point which is again piracy.
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kalirion: Now I admit that I've pirated before, but I no longer do that.

But because you are a sociopath and a thief, does not make that true of everyone else. As others have said, stealing from kids and coworkers makes you pretty fucking pathetic, and a sad excuse for a human being.

Edit: Hmm, or more likely you're just trolling, since I find it hard to believe anyone is that dumb for real. Not the stealing from kids part, but the bragging about it and assuming that everyone does that.
He was making examples, not saying stuff he did personally.....and again he is showing how hypocritical alot of people against piracy are. As many have ripped TV shows/books/music at some point then have the gall to point the finger at current pirates which is sad.

P.S. He didn't say he stole from kids, he was making a hypothetical example of things some may do that would make them also pirates if they did it.

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Edit to all in general: I find it sad when someone points out how hypocritical it can be to label people as pirates after doing similar things themselves over the years or even currently, and others belittle him/her for it & try to deflect.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by GameRager
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stoicsentry: Do you want your games being made only by those who work on them in their spare time? Or do you want games being made by professionals, people who have invested their life's work into their products? Do you want games that have a small staff of volunteers or games that have a staff that doesn't have to worry about where their next meal or their housing payment will come from?
Preferably, I want my games made by professionals who are employed full time for that one purpose, and are given completely free hands to make whatever they think would be cool, without any interference whatsoever by corporate suits who wouldn't know a fantastic game if it jumped up and headbutted them, and without any market analysts, focus groups or other corporate crap anywhere in the process.

Can I have that? No, but it's a beautiful thought, nonetheless.
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stoicsentry: Do you want your games being made only by those who work on them in their spare time? Or do you want games being made by professionals, people who have invested their life's work into their products? Do you want games that have a small staff of volunteers or games that have a staff that doesn't have to worry about where their next meal or their housing payment will come from?
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Wishbone: Preferably, I want my games made by professionals who are employed full time for that one purpose, and are given completely free hands to make whatever they think would be cool, without any interference whatsoever by corporate suits who wouldn't know a fantastic game if it jumped up and headbutted them, and without any market analysts, focus groups or other corporate crap anywhere in the process.

Can I have that? No, but it's a beautiful thought, nonetheless.
:slowclap:
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kalirion: Now I admit that I've pirated before, but I no longer do that.

But because you are a sociopath and a thief, does not make that true of everyone else. As others have said, stealing from kids and coworkers makes you pretty fucking pathetic, and a sad excuse for a human being.

Edit: Hmm, or more likely you're just trolling, since I find it hard to believe anyone is that dumb for real. Not the stealing from kids part, but the bragging about it and assuming that everyone does that.
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GameRager: He was making examples, not saying stuff he did personally.....and again he is showing how hypocritical alot of people against piracy are. As many have ripped TV shows/books/music at some point then have the gall to point the finger at current pirates which is sad.

P.S. He didn't say he stole from kids, he was making a hypothetical example of things some may do that would make them also pirates if they did it.

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Edit to all in general: I find it sad when someone points out how hypocritical it can be to label people as pirates after doing similar things themselves over the years or even currently, and others belittle him/her for it & try to deflect.
For the second time: even if one DID commit an error in the past, how does that have any bearing on whether or not the act is wrong? If a murderer tells me that what he did was wrong I would say, "Yes, it was." not, "you can't stay that!"
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GameRager: He was making examples, not saying stuff he did personally.....and again he is showing how hypocritical alot of people against piracy are. As many have ripped TV shows/books/music at some point then have the gall to point the finger at current pirates which is sad.

P.S. He didn't say he stole from kids, he was making a hypothetical example of things some may do that would make them also pirates if they did it.

=============
Edit to all in general: I find it sad when someone points out how hypocritical it can be to label people as pirates after doing similar things themselves over the years or even currently, and others belittle him/her for it & try to deflect.
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stoicsentry: For the second time: even if one DID commit an error in the past, how does that have any bearing on whether or not the act is wrong? If a murderer tells me that what he did was wrong I would say, "Yes, it was." not, "you can't stay that!"
I didn't say it wasn't illegal, just that it's a bit hypocritical for one to do something then stop and point fingers at those who do the same.
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stoicsentry: Do you want your games being made only by those who work on them in their spare time? Or do you want games being made by professionals, people who have invested their life's work into their products? Do you want games that have a small staff of volunteers or games that have a staff that doesn't have to worry about where their next meal or their housing payment will come from?
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Wishbone: Preferably, I want my games made by professionals who are employed full time for that one purpose, and are given completely free hands to make whatever they think would be cool, without any interference whatsoever by corporate suits who wouldn't know a fantastic game if it jumped up and headbutted them, and without any market analysts, focus groups or other corporate crap anywhere in the process.

Can I have that? No, but it's a beautiful thought, nonetheless.
So you want people to develop games with no concern for whether or not other want them? How does that make any sense? You want a bunch of guys working 80 hour weeks, without considering their audience?

Let me ask you something: would YOU do that? Would you invest years of work into something hoping that it would pay off, without checking to see whether it will?

That would be like buying a house without getting it inspected....
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Wishbone: Preferably, I want my games made by professionals who are employed full time for that one purpose, and are given completely free hands to make whatever they think would be cool, without any interference whatsoever by corporate suits who wouldn't know a fantastic game if it jumped up and headbutted them, and without any market analysts, focus groups or other corporate crap anywhere in the process.

Can I have that? No, but it's a beautiful thought, nonetheless.
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stoicsentry: So you want people to develop games with no concern for whether or not other want them? How does that make any sense? You want a bunch of guys working 80 hour weeks, without considering their audience?

Let me ask you something: would YOU do that? Would you invest years of work into something hoping that it would pay off, without checking to see whether it will?

That would be like buying a house without getting it inspected....
He wants others to make games by gamers for gamers without all that advert/marketing/exec bonus/etc money thrown in as part of the budget, games made for cheap, and the money going to the devs.

Also sometimes you take risks. It is not a law in this country that everything has to succeed or made to by the people/consumers. If it fails you try again or get a different job.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by GameRager
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stoicsentry: For the second time: even if one DID commit an error in the past, how does that have any bearing on whether or not the act is wrong? If a murderer tells me that what he did was wrong I would say, "Yes, it was." not, "you can't stay that!"
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GameRager: I didn't say it wasn't illegal, just that it's a bit hypocritical for one to do something then stop and point fingers at those who do the same.
By definition, that is NOT hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is a conflict between thought and action. It is not a conflict between present thought and past action.
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stoicsentry: So you want people to develop games with no concern for whether or not other want them? How does that make any sense? You want a bunch of guys working 80 hour weeks, without considering their audience?

Let me ask you something: would YOU do that? Would you invest years of work into something hoping that it would pay off, without checking to see whether it will?

That would be like buying a house without getting it inspected....
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GameRager: He wants others to make games by gamers for gamers without all that advert/marketing/exec bonus/etc money thrown in as part of the budget, games made for cheap, and the money going to the devs.
....that can be done. Who is stopping it?
Post edited July 24, 2011 by stoicsentry
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GameRager: I didn't say it wasn't illegal, just that it's a bit hypocritical for one to do something then stop and point fingers at those who do the same.
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stoicsentry: By definition, that is NOT hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is a conflict between thought and action. It is not a conflict between present thought and past action.
It is if you did something similar(tv show doanloads, etc) and thought it ok then went and pointed fingers at others who did other things like game piracy/etc.

And by not pirating anymore period but pointing fingers at other pirates it's not hypocritical but it does make one look smug.
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stoicsentry: ....that can be done. Who is stopping it?
Try getting funding together for an indie game of a larger than indie game size on your own and tell me how it turns out. Some manage to do it but not everyone. Plus the big companies block out some of the smaller devs with bigger advert budgets.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by GameRager
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stoicsentry: So you want people to develop games with no concern for whether or not other want them? How does that make any sense? You want a bunch of guys working 80 hour weeks, without considering their audience?

Let me ask you something: would YOU do that? Would you invest years of work into something hoping that it would pay off, without checking to see whether it will?

That would be like buying a house without getting it inspected....
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GameRager: He wants others to make games by gamers for gamers without all that advert/marketing/exec bonus/etc money thrown in as part of the budget, games made for cheap, and the money going to the devs.

Also sometimes you take risks. It is not a law in this country that everything has to succeed or made to by the people/consumers. If it fails you try again or get a different job.
Well, now we're talking about two different things. The previous one I already covered, but let's look at your new claim.

Developing ANY game is a risk, period. It doesn't matter if you have market analysts or not. Anything is a risk. So the question is: do you want to minimize your risks?

The answer is obviously.. yes... of course you do.

Get back to me when you are jobless, without any kind of income and devoting full time work to a project. At that point, we'll see if you want to know whether or not the project will pay off.

My entire problem with this is that you seem to be asking for others to behave in a way that you yourself probably wouldn't.
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GameRager: He wants others to make games by gamers for gamers without all that advert/marketing/exec bonus/etc money thrown in as part of the budget, games made for cheap, and the money going to the devs.

Also sometimes you take risks. It is not a law in this country that everything has to succeed or made to by the people/consumers. If it fails you try again or get a different job.
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stoicsentry: Well, now we're talking about two different things. The previous one I already covered, but let's look at your new claim.

Developing ANY game is a risk, period. It doesn't matter if you have market analysts or not. Anything is a risk. So the question is: do you want to minimize your risks?

The answer is obviously.. yes... of course you do.

Get back to me when you are jobless, without any kind of income and devoting full time work to a project. At that point, we'll see if you want to know whether or not the project will pay off.

My entire problem with this is that you seem to be asking for others to behave in a way that you yourself probably wouldn't.
Not really....it's just sometimes you have to take a risk. Analysis doesn't always reflect the risk fully or properly and even with it you're still taking a gamble. So why not put the money into making the game better and get volunteers to do your testing/analysis work for you?

And as I said, if you fail you have options.....try again or get a different job. I may sound heartless but it's hard enough supporting myself. I could care less about most other people when I have myself to worry about.

Also another case, but sometimes people actually do do things for free you know.......even when they have little income to speak of.
Post edited July 24, 2011 by GameRager