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stonebro: I ... don't know what to say to this. Except ONLY IN AMERICUH.
http://www.tabloidprodigy.com/?p=15802
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Rohan15: What do you expect? He's from Missouri.

I attend college in Missouri you sum-bitch.
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Aliasalpha: I just had a thought about this, do you think we can all get together and file a class action lawsuit against this guy for defamation of our species? Whenever I read things like this I feel deeply ashamed I'm part of the same species
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klaymen: If our demand would be "removing him from our gene pool", then you have my vote.

Install a TV in his head, you mean?
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Lou: Then don't fire your gun on Sunday or Move.

It's kind of ironic that guns should be more free than people. America - land of the free or land of the incarcerated? (statistics suggests the latter, and you can't have it both ways).
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Gundato: You are a shopkeeper in a bad neighborhood. Hell, let's say you are a 5 foot chinese guy who is rather scrawny. You are clearly easy game for thugs who want to knock over a store. But gasp, you have a legally purchased gun under your counter, and most of the neighborhood thugs know this. So they don't mess with you.

Or, perhaps more likely, they come prepared with guns of their own.
This is why police don't carry guns (by default) in my country. They know that if they start carrying, the criminals will start carrying, and that's a bad thing.
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Lou: Then don't fire your gun on Sunday or Move.
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Zeewolf: It's kind of ironic that guns should be more free than people. America - land of the free or land of the incarcerated? (statistics suggests the latter, and you can't have it both ways).
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Gundato: You are a shopkeeper in a bad neighborhood. Hell, let's say you are a 5 foot chinese guy who is rather scrawny. You are clearly easy game for thugs who want to knock over a store. But gasp, you have a legally purchased gun under your counter, and most of the neighborhood thugs know this. So they don't mess with you.

Or, perhaps more likely, they come prepared with guns of their own.
This is why police don't carry guns (by default) in my country. They know that if they start carrying, the criminals will start carrying, and that's a bad thing.

Again, chicken and the egg. It is great to posit what-if?s, but you need to look at what-is every so often.
And, as mentioned, it is easier to carry a handgun around. But it is easier to fit a shotgun under a counter.
Either way, it is a deterrent. It won't stop everybody, but it will stop a lot. And to take that away overnight would not end well.
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Gundato: ...

I'm starting to think you own a shop in a bad neighborhood or something... :) This for me sounds more like a movie cliche. I don't think this is a good motivation why firearms are good in hands of civilians because of the rarity of this situation. Like I said I doubt it's a common situation.
If a shopkeeper wants to use a firearm as a deterrent would better keep the shotgun on the right shoulder while operating the cash register with the left. Otherwise if the weapon is under the counter, when a robber enters with a handgun would be too late for him to reach the shotgun. And here is another aspect to note: the presence of the shotgun under the counter tempts the shopkeeper to reach for it instead of handing the money to the robber and this way a robbery may become a murder case (most likely the robber will be faster).
When I was making reference to the use of a panic button to signal the intervention team I was not thinking about the police. The panic button is connected to a contracted security firm which will arrive at the scene in less than 2 minutes. A smart shopkeeper may pull the time until the intervention team appears. And if the robber is gone with the money at least he still have his life and most likely using the security camera footage the police will catch the robber in short time.
There are reasonable alternatives for every situation where a firearm may seem to be the obvious solution.
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iuliand: There are reasonable alternatives for every situation where a firearm may seem to be the obvious solution.

Like shooting lasers from your eyes and being able to turn into a dinosaur
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Gundato: ...
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iuliand: I'm starting to think you own a shop in a bad neighborhood or something... :) This for me sounds more like a movie cliche. I don't think this is a good motivation why firearms are good in hands of civilians because of the rarity of this situation. Like I said I doubt it's a common situation.
If a shopkeeper wants to use a firearm as a deterrent would better keep the shotgun on the right shoulder while operating the cash register with the left. Otherwise if the weapon is under the counter, when a robber enters with a handgun would be too late for him to reach the shotgun. And here is another aspect to note: the presence of the shotgun under the counter tempts the shopkeeper to reach for it instead of handing the money to the robber and this way a robbery may become a murder case (most likely the robber will be faster).
When I was making reference to the use of a panic button to signal the intervention team I was not thinking about the police. The panic button is connected to a contracted security firm which will arrive at the scene in less than 2 minutes. A smart shopkeeper may pull the time until the intervention team appears. And if the robber is gone with the money at least he still have his life and most likely using the security camera footage the police will catch the robber in short time.
There are reasonable alternatives for every situation where a firearm may seem to be the obvious solution.

Actually, friend of the family is one (small chinese guy, at that :p). He doesn't carry a shotgun around with him, but he keeps it under the counter (pointed straight out). All he has to do is flick the safety and squeeze. I am terrified to hell and back (he isn't the most mentally stable person...), but it works pretty well for him. He still gets an idiot trying to rob him every so often, but most of the neighborhood idiots know not to mess with him. He has never had to fire his weapon in anger, but it sure has deterred a lot of people over the years. If said people suddenly found out that it was illegal for him to have that weapon, I suspect he would be robbed and/or murdered within a week.
And yes, if you can afford to hire a private security firm who is less than two minutes away, go for it. But places that have those tend to not exactly be in bad neighborhoods (if there were, crime wouldn't be as much of an issue).
Also: There are still problems with your magic solution of keeping mercenaries on hand: That can EASILY turn into a hostage situation. Which is even worse.
As for criminals' rights: I am not going to get into that, but you'll understand if I value the people trying to make an honest living more than the ones who want to steal and hurt people.
You are right, there are reasonable alternatives for every situation where a firearm may seem to be the obvious solution. But sometimes, the firearm IS a very reasonable alternative. Maybe not where you live, but us filthy Americans have found a few situations where it works.
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iuliand: There are reasonable alternatives for every situation where a firearm may seem to be the obvious solution.
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Fenixp: Like shooting lasers from your eyes and being able to turn into a dinosaur

maybe, but instead you can always carry a katana... :P unfortunately this is also illegal here... :)
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Fenixp: Like shooting lasers from your eyes and being able to turn into a dinosaur
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iuliand: maybe, but instead you can always carry a katana... :P unfortunately this is also illegal here... :)

Does that mean cutlasses are illegal too?! :(
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ceemdee: Does that mean cutlasses are illegal too?! :(

It is illegal to carry cutting weapons for self defense. I'm not entirely sure (because I'm not preoccupied by this) but I think it is perfectly legal to have it in your home (I know people that have in their collection such swords).
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Lou: Then don't fire your gun on Sunday or Move.
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Zeewolf: It's kind of ironic that guns should be more free than people. America - land of the free or land of the incarcerated? (statistics suggests the latter, and you can't have it both ways).

Actually we are very free - In the senario purposed one is: 1) free to fire the gun on Sunday and be arrested and serve time, 2) free to try and get the law changed or ammended, 3) free to not fire gun in accordance with the law, or 4) free to move elsewhere. Lots of freedom there. Your point is really reactionary and not thought out. Guns have no freedom but we as Americans do and one of them is to Bear Arms. Thanks to the Founders for putting that into the second ammendnment. Show me one statistic that shows Americans are not free please as I don't think one exists. As they say in grade school - show your work.
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Lou: Actually we are very free - In the senario purposed one is: 1) free to fire the gun on Sunday and be arrested and serve time, 2) free to try and get the law changed or ammended, 3) free to not fire gun in accordance with the law, or 4) free to move elsewhere.

By the same sort of reasoning, you can argue that the people of North Korea are completely free.
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Lou: Actually we are very free - In the senario purposed one is: 1) free to fire the gun on Sunday and be arrested and serve time, 2) free to try and get the law changed or ammended, 3) free to not fire gun in accordance with the law, or 4) free to move elsewhere.
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Wishbone: By the same sort of reasoning, you can argue that the people of North Korea are completely free.

If you give then 1 and 3 not 2 and four ;-)
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Lou: It's kind of ironic that guns should be more free than people. America - land of the free or land of the incarcerated? (statistics suggests the latter, and you can't have it both ways).
Actually we are very free - In the senario purposed one is: 1) free to fire the gun on Sunday and be arrested and serve time, 2) free to try and get the law changed or ammended, 3) free to not fire gun in accordance with the law, or 4) free to move elsewhere. Lots of freedom there. Your point is really reactionary and not thought out. Guns have no freedom but we as Americans do and one of them is to Bear Arms. Thanks to the Founders for putting that into the second ammendnment. Show me one statistic that shows Americans are not free please as I don't think one exists. As they say in grade school - show your work.

He means what the 1990's are referred to as the "Punishing Decade". 1 adult male behind bars for every 100 born free. Guns have no free will, but his reference is slightly poignant considering how strict the laws here are. If gun convictions had wrongful prosecution evidence like DNA in rape cases it would cost us an unimaginable sum than the millions we already pay out for those as taxpayers.
This only has to do with how the 2nd Amendment is managed, but doesn't threaten it. The NRA make worse for themselves at a podium where a child has been shot, than any liberal banging a drum circle and smoking a peace pipe crying.
It's an immense, beautiful regional country so one can become desensitized to this or that happening right down the street. Living your life your own and minding your business builds more character and is a hell of a lot more enjoyable than crying about saving the whales and restricting guns etc.
Post edited July 04, 2010 by rs2yjz
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Wishbone: By the same sort of reasoning, you can argue that the people of North Korea are completely free.
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Lou: If you give then 1 and 3 not 2 and four ;-)

No, your argument is that Americans are free because they can choose to follow the law or not. Unsurprisingly, that goes for every human being in the world. Even the ones in North Korea. Everyone are free to make whatever choices they want. Of course, some choices have consequences, but there it is.