Gundato: Wait, so we are not free because we have criminals?
Or because we enforce the law against white collar crime?
Or are you saying that someone who robs a kwik-e-mart every time he or she gets out of prison should not be given special treatment?
Don't get me wrong, we definitely need to work on rehabilitation. But to say we aren't free because we have criminals?

Zeewolf: OK, I have only been to America once (Los Angeles), but I came away thoroughly impressed with the country and the people. Everyone I met were friendly, welcoming and helpful. I refuse to believe that the people in USA are more criminal than people elsewhere (generally speaking).

orcishgamer: You need to spend some time researching our incarceration rate. If you can be put in prison for any reason at pretty much any time, you aren't free. That is our system. That and we tend to continue punish people after they've served their sentences, we deny them their civil rights on a regular basis, the ability to get a job, etc. It is terribly sick. We don't enforce laws or punish people in order to protect citizens, we do it for PROFIT.
Other countries do it much differently, Norway is one of the better examples (they won't extradite to the US as their courts have ruled our prisons don't meet the minimum requirements of human decency). Do you really believe we have the highest crime rate in the world? Really? Do you believe that when someone is put in prison in Iran or China it is always a just imprisonment? Then why do you think it is always just here?
Zeewolf:
You are right to not buy it. White collar criminals are a very low portion of our prison population. It's disproportionately made up of minorities (especially black). Your chances of going to prison before age 25 in some states quadruples if you're black. These are not white collar crimes, they are for petty theft or drug charges (usually minor drug possession).

Gundato: Okay, what laws do you disapprove of? I mean, if you can get arrested for "pretty much anything", which laws do you think are morally wrong? Which laws do you think impinge upon your freedom?
As for how we treat felons: I agree, rehabilitation is a huge problem in this country. But are we less free because the government isn't forcing everyone to give a kiddie-rapist a high-paying job? Are we less free because people are allowed to discriminate against felons in favor of people with no criminal record (I know I would rather hire someone who isn't likely to become a repeat offender...).
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of problems with the system. But where are these laws taking away our freedom? Because here is what I am seeing happening:
Person A: "The united States has a huge incarceration rate! They aren't free!"
Person B: "So they aren't free because they have criminals?"
Person A: "No, but obviously they are arrested for everything over there!"
Person B: "Like what?"
Person A: "I don't know. But if they have that many people in prison, they must not be free"
Person B: "So they aren't free because they have criminals?"

orcishgamer: Drug laws, possession is a stupid thing to incarcerate folks for, alcohol kills more people yearly than every illegal drug combined in the US. The serious addicts need treatment or at least medical care, not incarceration.

orcishgamer: Video taping officers, people have been arrested for taping a cops (who were incidentally out of line) for violation of things such as wiretapping statutes.

orcishgamer: Possession of a Bony Fish, by treaty with Honduras it is a flipping felony to possess Bony Fish. I know you don't know what one is and probably will never have one, but it's a felony. I bring this up to illustrate how stupid our treaty laws are, there's piles of them.

orcishgamer: Obeying officers orders and having the audacity to sit there and get your butt kicked for it (see the Peter Watts case), the jury was kind enough to convict Peter Watts of "obstructing a U.S. Customs and Border Protection officer" instead of nullifying the case.

orcishgamer: Admitting you watered your mom's medical marijuana plant when you are 17, and then she let's her medical card expire for one week, you are tried as an adult for endangering a minor.

orcishgamer: Sending a booby shot of yourself on your phone from 16 year old girl to 16 year old guy, you are brought up for felony child porn.

orcishgamer: Watching your children burn to death and then having the bad luck to get a fire inspector that relies on what experts call "witch craft" to assess the cause of the blaze will get you put to death even after exonerating evidence, by actual experts with actual training, has been presented: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

orcishgamer: Oh wait, you don't have to ever have charges brought against you, you can go to Gitmo as an American citizen now, no you may not have an attorney or have your habeus corpus rights. No, your family will likely not be told where you are. The president knows it and thinks it's "okay": http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7092435.ece or any of the other 1000s of articles on the subject.

orcishgamer: Geez man, even talking to the cops can get you convicted of something you aren't even guilty of. By all means watch a law professor explain it to you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik and then watch an actual cop say "everything he said is true" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE and admit to using all the tactics.

orcishgamer: And don't forget the police can charge you with whatever and drop the charges later, usually with impunity, and meanwhile your name is dragged through the mud in local papers (and immortalized online forever) and you pay thousands for legal defense.

orcishgamer: We joke about anal rape in our prisons. Seriously, that is unbelievably sick that we let that go on. Would it be okay if one of those guys raped a gal? But no, since you're in prison you probably deserve to be raped too, and in the one place you're very unlikely to be able to find any psychological support afterward.

CymTyr: I had a nice response to this thread detailing my thoughts, opinions, and facts I've gathered over the years, but you guys seem pretty set in your corners.
Have fun, I'm out of this thread like a button with too much pressure.

orcishgamer: No amount of persuasion is going to convince you. My brother in law sat on the grand jury for one of these. There is video tape of Peter Watts being detained, the you can read accounts of the jurors posted online in which they say he didn't argue with the officers. No, most European countries will not send you to prison for years and years for possessing a minor amount of drugs (unless you were trying to sell it), in fact in a few they'll simply force you to seek treatment.
The point of the Bony Fish story is to convince you that you can't know all the laws you are violating. My point, therefor, stands. There's more than a "few" treaty laws.
You don't know what you're admitting to to a cop might be illegal, man, that is the point. Also, you don't have to have actually done anything wrong, please watch the first half of the "Don't talk to the cops ever" video to understand why.
Again, nothing I can say will convince you, that is the problem with our country, we lose freedoms right and left, but we've all been weened on "the American flag, BOOYAH, I feel so patriotic." It makes me sick. Just wait until you've pissed off a cop and see, even if you were doing nothing wrong.

Gundato: Apologies, I based my knowledge of the Watts thing off of the articles online.
But either way: Was he out of his car? Did the police tell him to get back in his car? Did he get back in his car?
If the answer to all three of those is "yes", then he violated the law. Again, imagine if it were a large person as opposed to an old guy. The law isn't a bad one.
As for the drug possession thing: Maybe. But that just becomes a matter of magnitude. Many European countries are much more relaxed about it. We aren't. There are reasons for that (we are pretty close to South America...) and against that (drugs are "fun"). But if your argument is that we are less free because we get in more trouble for heroin, then fine, say it.
That being said: Generally, you don't get sent to prison for possession alone, unless you are a repeat offender. You DO get sent for possession with the intent to traffick. It is somewhat arbitrary as to how that is handled (a matter of how much drugs you have), but so be it.
As for the disparity in enforcement between the US and Europe. That, in many ways, gets back to the earlier gun control debate. We have a different mentality. Europe is MUCH more relaxed about things like alcohol and drugs. We have essentially turned those into a rite of passage in the US (by trying to control them). And that causes a vicious cycle. So they are more dangerous here. Let's just go with the simple example of marijuana, which most people don't consider to be a problem. If you are not a moron, you will get high in the safety of your own home and at parties. If you are a moron, you will get high and drive. That is a problem we have had, so we had to be stricter about it. Once things start to affect others, it becomes a problem.
As for Bony Fish: You are right, there are a lot of laws that people don't know about. But please, how likely are you to be purchasing exotic fish (from reputable sources) and not know about this? Or are you suggesting that cops are running around and trying to trap people into buying Bony Fish on the street? :p
And again, how often do you talk to cops? Do you just walk up to a cop on the street and start talking about your personal life? Probably not. If a cop is interrogating you, then it is because you were a witness to something, or a suspect to something.
And, in those cases, I actually agree. I tell cops the bare minimum. And I sure as hell don't volunteer any information (unless I felt it was pertinent to the incident at hand, such as "I am pretty sure I saw her talking on her cell phone before she got into that accident"). I didn't feel the need to talk to the cops about my collection of exotic and illegal fish :p. I DID joke with a cop about smurf porn once, but that was a very special situation (and I actually knew the cop). Probably not all that smart, but it was funny :p
It is always possible to incriminate yourself. So if you are really scared, just plead the fifth by default. Worst case scenario, you don't vollunteer useful information and someone gets away with something they wouldn't have otherwise (thus increasing our freedom statistic :p). But that being said, I think we can both agree that it usually ends up being morons like OJ who admit to assaulting people with illegal firearms or idiot stoners who say "I was busy getting high when...". I sincerely doubt anyone has ever gotten arrested for owning a Bony Fish while saying hello to a cop on the street (okay, actually, I am pretty sure someone did. But I suspect the person was an idiot :p).
As for the very last part: Wow, I love how everyone who doesn't think like you is an idiot who makes you sick :p. Would the country be freer if we were all forced to be indoctrinated in your beliefs? :p Like I keep saying, I am not saying the system is without problems. If you want to say that things like The Patriot Act make us less free, feel free (although, I would STRONGLY advise you to actually research how this is handled in many other countries...). That is the great thing about this country, people are allowed to question their government. But if you are going to argue that we are less free because we have prisons, please get specific examples. You actually did this, but most of yours tend to be more toward the "the government is out to get us" angle and don't actually explain the high prisoner percentage (unless we are to believe that everyone is getting arrested at borders, watering plants, and owning Bony Fish :p)
I will leave you with the following, which I usually reserve for people who freak out about internet security with regard to the patriot act, but I think still applies here:
Your mother lied to you. You aren't special. You are just like everybody else. So why do you think the cops/government are going to go out of their way to frame you for an incredibly esoteric crime and then ship you off to Gitmo?
Food for thought :p

orcishgamer: None of the people to which I referred were really "special" either, bad stuff happened to them, in some cases really bad stuff.

Gundato: The writer was out of his vehicle and refusing to obey an officer of the law. Maybe he shouldn't have ever been stopped, but until "the bad guys" stop forgetting their black hats at the dry cleaners, there are going to be false positives. And once he refused to obey an officer of the law making reasonable requests, he became a 'bad guy".

kalirion: An officer of the law is not "the law". Their requests, whether "reasonable" or not, do not have to be obeyed. They can arrest you, and it is illegal to resist arrest. But they don't have the right to beat you up for failing to "obey a request".