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Parvateshwar: A minority of military personnel experience these issues even though they have committed murder because it is culturally acceptable and even lauded in our own and most societies.
The military context is a bit interesting. What about international law? Is it correct to use the term "murder" when talking about military personnel engaged in operations which are legal under international law?

Take a fictional (?) situation during the recent NATO intervention in Libya as an example. A group of Libyan government tanks are moving towards a city held by rebel forces. Many civilians are still present in the city. Other units of the Libyan government forces have attacked civilians on several previous occasions. Their actions added to a context which made the UN authorise the use of military force. Whether or not the crews in these tanks have murdered civilians before is unknown. Their current intentions can not be determined for sure, but judging from the actions carried out by other members of their side one can clearly assume that they will pose a direct threat towards civilians in the near future.

In a context like this I believe it's better to try and stop those tanks according to the rules of engagement. I may be wrong about their intentions, but the context leads me to assume the worst and then act based on that. A tough call.

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Parvateshwar: We do not kill soldiers returning from war even though in the countries from which they are returning they're often considered murders.
That would have been slightly counter-productive and irrational, to be modest.
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XmXFLUXmX: What kind of economics? Marxist-Socialism? If you want a prosperous economy, you take care of the citizens, not the criminals. It costs around $30,000 per inmate a year, and some of these people are serving life sentences, and most will eventually reoffend, there are no sound economics in the rehabilitation system. Some people are just evil, and there is not a single socio-economic excuse that justifies their crimes or their lifestyles, so why not nip it in the bud before innocent people are killed, or the state is bankrupted.
I think he means that if you rehabilitate the criminals they could become part of the working force and drive the economy instead of being a burden to it, thus helping in the long run. The only reason that they do go back to jail so often right now is because the rehabilitation system is subpar. Improve that, and you should see a decrease in rates of repeated offenders.

It's easy for you to say that these criminals are low-lifes who are draining society - and in a way you're right, but not many drug users or violent crime offenders do it because they want to - they do it because they believe they need to. They are human beings whose lives have taken different paths than ours, and again, it's often through no fault of their own. We should be helping them overcome their barriers and solve their problems so that they can start contributing to society instead.
Is it wrong to murder an Estonian?
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XmXFLUXmX: ...
Most of your information is wrong and you should check out The Innocence Project. Justice doesn't have to be based on vengeance and frankly it's barbaric that our justice system in the US is constructed in such a manner. It's even more disturbing that you don't even seem to be aware of it.

FYI, it costs far more to put someone to death than to feed and imprison them for a lifetime. So you can round file that tired and incorrect argument. You also might start to wonder what other facts you have wrong. You might even wonder if the US has ever executed an innocent man. I'll let you decide whether to enlighten yourself or not.
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GoJays2025: Most criminals in general aren't so different from you or me.
I agree with this.just out of curiosity, has anybody here actually been friends with somebody who was a murderer?
A couple of years ago, a fairly good friend of mine was sent to prison for solicitation of murder-for-hire. Technically he wasn't a murderer, but still it's pretty close. He was even on the local news when it happened ( he was a jail guard ).

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7363285


anyways, it might sound strange to say about a guy who tried to have somebody killed, but he was a pretty cool guy, but then I guess he just lost it when his girlfriend broke up with him, It was a total shocker for all the people who knew him, nobody saw it coming at all. He seemed to have a good life ahead of him. He was a prison guard, but before that he was an accountant and the co-manager of a restaurant.
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GoJays2025: This is true. Prisons usually don't do much in terms of rehabilitation. And here's the unfortunate part - I doubt there's enough resources to actually be able to create rehabilitation programs for all the inmates, especially in a country with a large population such as the US. I don't think simply locking them up is the best answer either, but instead of taking the easy way of saying 'alright, just kill them, they don't deserve to live anyway,' I'd rather that we keep working towards an employable rehabilitation system.
Crimes with high recidivism rates are things like robbery and burglerly (ack, screw the spelling). Rape, murder, and other heinous crimes have super low rates of of occurrence. Murder, in fact, is the lowest of all them, only 1.5% of people who ever make it out of prison after a murder conviction are rearrested for murder.

As usual the cult of propaganda and "wrong" is, not surprisingly, way off base with this stuff too.
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XmXFLUXmX: What kind of economics? Marxist-Socialism? If you want a prosperous economy, you take care of the citizens, not the criminals. It costs around $30,000 per inmate a year, and some of these people are serving life sentences, and most will eventually reoffend, there are no sound economics in the rehabilitation system.
And you're arguing we should spend even more in order to execute them? I don't think your argument actually has anything at all to do with economics.
Post edited March 02, 2012 by orcishgamer
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XmXFLUXmX: Also, this myth about "innocent" people getting the chair, is just that, a myth.
Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham. If you insist he was guilty then I insist you have no business condemning "guilty" people to death.

As for your "stay out of jail" advice, oh yes, the power of your single affirmative anecdote. Lol, if I could only have a nickel for everyone that truly believed in these.

The rest of your preconceived notions are similarly full of malarkey and lies (probably lies not invented by you, I don't think you're genuinely malicious by nature) but you'll have to disabuse yourself of them by taking a good, honest look at them.

If you're seriously holding up Vlad the Impaler as a model of how to run a nation or a justice system, holy shit, dude, the nation we'll be handing to our kids... they'll hate us for it and we'll deserve it.
Anyone that maliciously and repeatedly deprives another of theeir liberty should lose theirs completely.

Failing a recommemdation by their psychologist that rehabilitation is likely, any murderer, kidnapper, spousal abuser, etc should be killed after 3 offences or 2 severe related ones.
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orcishgamer: Tell that to Cameron Todd Willingham.
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XmXFLUXmX: The very same Cameron Todd WIllingham, who beat his wife while she was pregnant, and was in general, a violent, abusive, husband and criminal. Yeah, sure was "innocent". He was so "innocent", that he refused a polygraph test that might've helped his case.

Also, i'm not worried about what the kids will think, because children only care about instant gratification and aren't even operating on the same level as adults. In regards to this thread, I am more worried about having a competent government, that punishes criminals, and does not waste tax dollars, man power and time trying to rehabilitate sociopaths who can't be rehabilitated.
Lmao, really? He was accused of having beaten his wife during the same trumped up witch trial that led to his conviction of murder. Even his wife denied she'd been slapped (which contradicted the testimony of his neighbor).

You're basically saying he's guilty of this crime because he's guilty of that crime in a circle jerk of complete lack of logic.

The only thing Willingham was likely guilty of was not being a particularly swell guy. If that's enough in your mind to put someone to death along with the voodoo shit presented as evidence at his trial then, yes, you should never be allowed to sentence anyone to death. The governor actually refused to even review exonerating evidence sitting on his desk before the execution, evidence produced by disinterested, expert third parties. Geez man, this is why people have a problem with the death penalty and with attitudes like yours. People look at people in the defendant's seat and actually think "he wouldn't be there if he hadn't done something wrong!" That's a problem.

The sheer number of people let out of prison for wrongful convictions should make your stomach churn. You, and people with your attitude, can be factually shown to have wrongly deprived them of their rights and freedom. How the hell do you plan to make that up to them? With a, "Oh well, shit happens...", yeah, good show! And you think it's okay to put someone to death? And you think we spend too much examining the evidence so we ought to just haul em out back and hang them after the first conviction? Wow. That's barbaric, and if that's what passes for "right" and "liberty" then fuck your right and liberty, I don't want anything to do with them. I'll take my chances with the "criminals" and "scum".
Is it a lie that the cake is a lie?
Post edited March 02, 2012 by Nroug7
Harsh words orcish, but I have to agree. A) It's too easy to wrongfully convict somebody. Humans make mistakes, there is no such thing as 100% accuracy in dealing with just about anything we do. B) As I've said before, it IS very possible to get them on the right track again, something which you (FLUX) keep contradicting me on. I've personally worked with people who have been involved in criminal activity (don't think any of them were convicted of murder though) to help them reorient their lives. It's a program where they're being helped to get their education and get a job. Most of them I can't even fathom of having been in trouble with the law, while some are a little more troublesome, but the fact that they're there and making progress shows that programs like that definitely do help.
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orcishgamer: Lmao, really? He was accused of having beaten his wife during the same trumped up witch trial that led to his conviction of murder. Even his wife denied she'd been slapped (which contradicted the testimony of his neighbor).

You're basically saying he's guilty of this crime because he's guilty of that crime in a circle jerk of complete lack of logic.

The only thing Willingham was likely guilty of was not being a particularly swell guy. If that's enough in your mind to put someone to death along with the voodoo shit presented as evidence at his trial then, yes, you should never be allowed to sentence anyone to death. The governor actually refused to even review exonerating evidence sitting on his desk before the execution, evidence produced by disinterested, expert third parties. Geez man, this is why people have a problem with the death penalty and with attitudes like yours. People look at people in the defendant's seat and actually think "he wouldn't be there if he hadn't done something wrong!" That's a problem.

The sheer number of people let out of prison for wrongful convictions should make your stomach churn. You, and people with your attitude, can be factually shown to have wrongly deprived them of their rights and freedom. How the hell do you plan to make that up to them? With a, "Oh well, shit happens...", yeah, good show! And you think it's okay to put someone to death? And you think we spend too much examining the evidence so we ought to just haul em out back and hang them after the first conviction? Wow. That's barbaric, and if that's what passes for "right" and "liberty" then fuck your right and liberty, I don't want anything to do with them. I'll take my chances with the "criminals" and "scum".
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XmXFLUXmX: Okay, first off, he wasn't "accused" of beating his wife, he did beat his wife while she was pregnant: "in a follow up article by David Grann, it was noted that" ...there is evidence that Willingham hit his wife, even when she was pregnant, but there were no police reports or medical evidence indicating that Willingham had tried to abort or kill his children" . His wife denying that he hit the kids is irrelevant, battered and abused wives lie for their husbands all of the time, there is a reason why we have identified the Stockholm syndrome.


I am not using circular logic, if he was in fact innocent, he should've taken the polygraph test, if you are innocent, what do you have to hide? At this point, it was life or death, and he thought he could lie his way out of the system, and the system didn't fail and gave him a lethal injection.

Also, what is this "sheer number" of innocent people being thrown in the big house? I smell a law 101 student who is just parroting what his liberal teacher is telling him, i'd love a source for this "horde of innocent people in jail" claim.

As expected from a left-winger who sympathizes with criminals, you resort to hyperbole in almost every sentence. There is nothing wrong with examining the evidence, but lets face facts, if you find some guy covered in his victims blood next to the body, there is no need for the 10 legal "experts", the guy is fucking guilty! We saw what the legal experts and the forensic experts did with OJ, he was RELEASED! A lot of good they did. The point being is that all of these bloated expenditures in regards to judicial affairs are pointless if all you have to do is stack the jury.

To the point, violent criminals need to be put down, like the animals they are, and the judicial system needs a huge reform.
So if you were told to go through a truth/lie test, would you? Human tools are inaccurate, A lie is the truth if i believe it.
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GoJays2025: Two wrongs don't make a right.
And two Wongs don't make a white.
/bad joke
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XmXFLUXmX: As expected from a left-winger who sympathizes with criminals, you resort to hyperbole in almost every sentence. There is nothing wrong with examining the evidence, but lets face facts, if you find some guy covered in his victims blood next to the body, there is no need for the 10 legal "experts", the guy is fucking guilty! We saw what the legal experts and the forensic experts did with OJ, he was RELEASED! A lot of good they did. The point being is that all of these bloated expenditures in regards to judicial affairs are pointless if all you have to do is stack the jury.
Go watch 12 Angry Men.
Killing a murderer is justifiable in a variety of different situations.

MURDERING a murderer, though? That's a lot harder to justify, even in extreme cases such as protection from a corrupt court/magistrate/government/etc.