No way. I will only discuss sex if my wife brings it up first, We will only make whoopie if she initiates it, I will always be on the bottom, and I will ask for permission before every kiss, snuggle, and stiffy. God forbid there is actual penetration, but if it should inadvertently occur I will apologize before, during, and after the entire lurid and criminal act.

I'd buy flowers afterward but that might be construed as paying for sex, and that'd put me right back where this whole thing started - with me as a dirty rape-supporter.

I sincerely do not know much about the position of men in america, but it doesn't surprise me that you have less rights as far as domestic violence and sex crimes go. I don't know why but compared to european countries, things usually seem to reach really extreme levels there. Possibly because of the extremely stressing lifestyle. Anyway, it is not entirely fair to call men second class citizens as opposed to women. Because as much as women might have more rights when it comes to things you mentioned, they are regarded as second class citizens when it comes to other things like jobs and science. Speaking about Europe, I don't know any female who went to a phd program that wasn't looked down upon at first and that didn't need to spend an awful lot of time proving herself. Especially if they were in presumably male disciplines. Judging by what I've read and heard from a female african american friend (who is an engineering major), things are no different in america. For example female computer scientists with the same level of knowledge or experience as their male counterparts earn approximately 20000$ less. The fact that there are still all female colleges and that girls are encouraged to enroll them because they often get discriminated at co-ed ones doesn't really sound all that encouraging. I also remember reading how an ex-dean of harvard (I think it was harvard, but not sure) stated that females are naturally inferior in math than males. I'm not saying it's like that in every company , college or state, but it's there, more often than it should be. So it works both ways, just differently.

Also I'm not exactly sure how the whole story with feminism and domestic violence developed in america (doesn't really interest me either), but I wouldn't blame feminists COMPLETELY. I'm not saying they're not at fault. But I would blame it on traditional stereotypes too, and america does seem to be quite "traditional" with all the censoring, conservativeness and so on. I also wouldn't be surprised if many men had a hard time admitting that a female did something of the sort to them, because it would make them lose their "face". Again I don't mean EVERY man, but there are men who feel that they have to live up to the "strong macho badass" stereotype due to peer pressure.

As far as sex crimes with boys go, I do not know why it is so. I guess because traditionally men have been considered to be far more sexual than women. I don't think it has to do with "being valued". But I don't know. I haven't dabbled in it really. I'm mostly interested in the academia and presumably male jobs, because that's what is important to me.

As for men being considered valueless, especially poor men, I seriously doubt that has to do with feminism. The only things that come to my mind are soldiers, war, ability to support a family. If I'm wrong I take that back.

And as for the media, I liked this, there is much truth to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VeCjm1UO4M&feature=related
I don't agree with all the women vs tropes videos(haven't watched others), especially the one with the comics. They're made by males and generally aimed at males (in spite of girls loving them too) so it comes as no surprise. Just as I can't really blame the gaming industry for catering to guys more.

Duh is Duke Nukem seriously an idealized *sexual* image??? I mean that's how guys imagine the ideal male body??? (I'm serious ^^;)
Truth is, Lara Croft can be just as powerful with smaller boobs. Actually I'd say she'd need more muscles if we want to be realistic. But anyway, it has nothing to do with the avatar per se, but with the notion of power. Power makes you feel good. And being successful.

OT, in that old thread about playboy and feminism, I remember someone saying how girls can't complain about game heroes because they get to look at guys in pants all the time. Sorry but those are the kind of men that men like, women not much (or I at least). The kind that women like, guys usually hate :P

Back to the post, so why can more women nearly look the part of most anime/video games women? If gender roles were reversed more men would be able to pull off the male video game hero. There is a subsaharan tribe where gender roles are reversed to an extent (I remember every woman having several husbands), and guess what, women don't care much about their looks, and men who "compete" for women are all fussy about it. And gossipy. Also, I think again in another subsaharan tribe, women curse and are rough, and men are pacifists, subtle, indirect, always careful not to hurt other people's feelings .If the need arises they ask the women to do it. So, no, it's not something inherent in women. Social conditioning is an amazing thing. I don't know if you guys have ever bothered to look at a female magazine, the themes are always - how to lose weight, how to get rid of cellulite, how to prevent your husband from cheating on you, how to be more attractive for him, what to wear to be prettier etc. Every single female magazine does that. Luckily I don't read them (the covers in the shops are enough to get me pissed), but many women do. However things do seem to be shifting a bit. Well not really shifting, but metrosexuals seem to be on the rise.

Oh and btw I'd rather die than be raped (no necrophilia jokes please). I couldn't live with it, no matter what the help. And i wouldn't want to live with it. But I suffer from ocd and various quirky phobias so I'm by no means representative.

And btw2, there are women who would pass nr 12. There are also men who would pass. It implies habit, and present tense.

EDIT: okay, so I was told that the studies regarding the tribes that I read about are backed by anecdotal rather than scientific evidence. So I guess for the time being I'll have to join the "chicken and egg question" camp. Until I find time to clearly think about it in more detail ;P

The version of reality in American that you were presented with was unfortunately false. You do get into a few niche fields where women are a minority, but in general society heavily favors them.

For instance, women are not required to sign up for selective service (the draft) in order to get financial aid, however men are required to do so and in the event of a draft there is no lawful way out of it for most men.

In terms of reproductive rights, women have them men don't. I know that's kind of harsh, but men don't have any rights when it comes to reproduction and I don't just mean the obvious abortion, we don't have the right to terminate our parental responsibilities on a unilateral basis whereas women do.

Because of the lack of actual rights, paternity fraud is a real concern that men ought to have. Hospital staff and friends cannot be trusted to tell a guy that his kid isn't really his. Even in cases where it's blatantly clear to everybody else. Unfortunately once a man signs on the dotted line for the birth certificate it's extremely difficult to undo that even in cases where the child isn't his.

It's common for women to be allowed to hold women's only meetings with coworkers and to have women's only gyms and in some cases even have women's only areas of facilities. If it were restricted to just the restrooms that would be one thing, but at times it's extra facilities that they get to use.

I remember being told in high school about the girl's bathrooms, they were apparently impressive as they had stall doors and glass mirrors. Going back as far as elementary school, I remember there being stall doors missing and the school authorities not having them replaced.

I could definitely go on, but trust me, any impression that you've got that men aren't considered to be less than women in the US is one not based upon facts. Men typically expect to be treated poorly by society and as a result things like beatings and violence are likely to be accepted as a part of life. Of the homicides in the US, typical years break down to men being 4x as likely to be murdered as women.

The guy you are thinking of is probably Warren Farrell, who used to be on the board of NOW (National Organization of Women). He wrote an incredibly great book called "Why Men Are the Way They Are," which I think should be required reading for every woman. It was light years ahead of its time and is still ahead of its time today, though by terribly slow fits and starts some small parts of our culture are starting to catch up. It is full of things every man knows but few express and most would be too scared to express -- not because they are untrue or unkind, but because doing so is both quite risky and so far against the grain of our present-day culture.

The feminist movement ironically took little time to segue back to what it was in large part a revolt against anyway -- puritanical ideas about sex as a peculiarly joyless victimization, filth, and defilement, and those who want, pursue, or enjoy sex as indecent, perverts, beasts, and morally unsound, as well as possibly of criminal temperament. The move from the incorporation of everyone's sexuality and sexual value into a shared and guilt and hostility-free healthy and open human community into a visceral revulsion, reflexive and inflexible assumption of guilt and bad character, and childish demonizing took almost no time at all.

I was a big supporter of feminism at first. No longer. It has been too twisted and corrupted from its original mission and insight. What a shame. What once had us moving forward now has us moving backward. Some of us treating each other worse than ever. Yet again.

It´s just a resentful bitch, all this attention is becoming weird.

*facepalm*

Please tell me this woman isn't from Portland. Because her type thrives here.

It's almost as bad as the woman in my pop culture course who did her presentation on how tampons being marketed as making you seem cleaner if you use them is offensive to women....which led to some nasty thoughts as to what she used, or rather, DIDN'T use.

^ Like this?

Pretty much, but replace her attire with all hipster clothes + glasses and a skull cap and you have her. If feeling clean, or at least the implied image that you are dirty if you don't use tampons is oppressive then I for one welcome our new feminine hygiene overlords.

I might sound incoherent, sorry in advance, it's past 2 am here and I'm very tired...

Eh I don't really see career and mental capability as being less important than your points. But anyway; I have to read about selective service sometime, I saw that it's basically applying for the army? I do not know how the army functions in america, nor about the ways for women to get financial aid. Also when you say financial aid I can only think of college (I'm ignorant...). If there are special scholarships offered for gay people (and I know there are, my friend was seriously angry about that), of course there will be those for women. From what I know women were not allowed to attend ivy league schools until sometime in the 80s? So actually it comes as no surprise. And honestly you can't really expect every single woman to be forced to get into the army. I mean of course, there are women who do it, like it, and are physically fit for it. But most women aren't really fit for the army. We are physically weaker (which is why we are inferior to men in sports) and that's a biological fact we can't change. The fact that they're forcing you to join the army to get financial aid is something you should blame your government for, and the patriarchal society throughout history. But there are other ways to get financial aid.

Heh reproductive rights. As far as abortion is concerned, I'm afraid as a female I can't offer my sympathies ^^; I would be able to if pregnancy was something that involved the female body just as much as it does the male one. It's our body, it's us who go through those 9 months experiencing all kinds of unpleasant symptoms and it's us who give birth. To be honest I get seriously angry when I hear a man talking how abortion should be forbidden. And if any man wants to complain about it, complain to mother nature. I'd gladly give up on my ability to give birth, but alas I'm stuck unless I undergo surgery.
However, if a woman decides to give birth to a child, and the man doesn't want it, that woman should not count on the help of the father in any way, nor try to force him. Why can't you trust the hospital staff? It's absurd. You can try several hospitals if you don't trust just one. The birth certificate issue is serious...

Women-only meetings are absurd and clearly discriminating. Women-only gyms...now that's something I can't say I don't understand. Several of my friends, and especially my sister got seriously harassed by older men in gyms quite a few times. But yes, there should be some male-only gyms too, if there are women-only ones. No such things here.

The girl's bathrooms you're mentioning, that, well you were TOLD about it, didn't see it with your own eyes. The stall doors, did you guys complain and demand for it to be fixed ? Girls would do that instantly. You probably broke it yourselves though ^^; (which is something girls wouldn't really do) I remember when I was in elementary school (I think it would be junior high in america), a group of guys tried to get in our change room while we were changing for PE and they broke the door lol. Btw my high school had unisex toilets. So does my university. Which is why I have no inhibitions about using male toilets, I don't even perceive them as male XD

Aren't males more likely to be murdered because they are more likely to join gangs and get into seriously violent fights among themselves?

I am not entirely convinced, but there are some valid points and some things should definitely be changed. And I have to admit that some women there really exaggerate...

Oh this man seems very very cool. I think he meant the other book, the myth of male power. Does "why men are the way they are" talk about anything other than relationships? If I am to judge by what is written on wikipedia, he pretty much says what I believe every reasonable man and woman knows. Or should have realized at some point. I will read the myth of male power though, and the other books seem interesting too.

rotfl, priceless. some people really need to get a life.

He talks about much more than relationships. He talks about the formative influences on men from infancy through adulthood that shape their life experiences and create their outlooks. What the unique expectations are for men and how society looks at them, rightly or wrongly, whether they like it or not, and how all that makes men's psychology tick. What it makes them need and want and what it forces them to hide or deny. It's not really a relationship back-and-forth book so much as an explanation of male psychology -- for once, from a sympathetic ear in straightforward language, with no axe to grind and no excuses made to go grinding one. Reading it is like having that part of the world explained to you that you thought you were the only one who knew about and wondered why everyone kept secret, better than you could express it and more thoroughly than you had thought about it. It's very reader-friendly and I believe men will find reading it a relief and women find reading it a near skeleton key to male psychology. Neither should find it offensive, unless they're the type looking to be offended. Boys would know that the idea of their demanding something would be a joke. Also that that "joke" could very likely be met with emotional and/or physical violence in response. Boys are not cared about in this way.

It's the same thing as adults. There are no safety measures put into the workplace until women come to work there. That's actually an aspect of women coming into the workplace that has been extremely favorable to men. Since people actually care about women, men can come along at last for a free ride when it comes to safety. If the stairs are safe for you, that is, they'll be safe for me too. If you're not around? I can shut up and go to hell. Or go work someplace else. Guys quite often wouldn't dare risk the consequences of standing out. Even very young boys get in fights. This is because a premium is put on male violence and competitive physicality, and their displays. It's a game you still lose if you don't play, because you will just get dragged into it already branded as somehow "off" or "cowardly" or "gay" if you are not interested. And you will probably lose if you do play it, too, as bullies and gangs rarely pick any sort of a challenge, preferring instead to choose the easiest targets. At any rate, you don't have to volunteer to get involved. It will reliably come to you.

I'll read it then, sounds like a really interesting read. as for the rest, gah, what can I say...I find the american society so alien it's not even funny. I mean not specifically because of this, but because of pretty much everything I've heard from american people. And if asking for something as simple as bathroom door is a joke, you really do need a male rights movement. It's ridiculous.

But if I remember correctly from the other thread about feminism, there were people blaming things such as these on the feminist movement. Which is unfair to a certain extent. "He argued that virtually every society that survived did so by training a cadre of its sons to be disposable—in war, and in work. The paradox of masculinity, he proposed, is that the very training for traditional masculinity that created a healthy society created unhealthy boys and men." (from wikipedia entry on w.farrell, the part about the myth of male power). As he says, basically it's your own fault. And I don't mean it in any malicious way.

Societal norms are probably one of the most messed up things in existence if you ask me. Their enforced by both genders and breaking them makes people look at you like you're doing something wrong. But they're something that change as the world around us changes.

Equality...equality is something that both sides of the equation have to accept as something that is both going to happen, and SHOULD happen. The thing is, equality is only something that will happen in any form with any group, if we finally learn to push for equality and nothing farther. No payback saying that it's fair, no wanting more because you feel it's deserved for past injustices...just something fair, honest, and truthful.

And, I forgot to add, for the other side to accept that some things are going to change and that it's going to take some adjusting.

Yes, he is, so is Marcus Pheonix and 100 other video game Conan-type characters that look just like them.

Of course Lara Croft could be powerful without huge boobs (in fact, she's way toned down in the new games), but that's the thing, she's idealized. Sure ideals vary a bit from person to person and culture to culture, but we've all got 800,000 years or more of evolution pushing us towards essentially the same-ish things.

And yes, hedwards is right, women certainly face some stigmas in modern society, but men are continually told they are worth less and that their lives are expendable.
Thank you I googled like crazy for this guy (or someone similar, this sounds like him) and you wouldn't believe it, everything about feminist authors and history of feminism actually excludes all the male contributors (which in the beginning was nearly half I recall someone claiming, could be bunk, but I know there were some and NONE were ever included).

Yeah, but your view of how it "should" work is radically different from how it does work. Women lie about fathers, lie about their address, knowing the process server will lie and say he delivered it, judgment against a false father is almost always upheld. If the mother is accepting welfare the "not-father" will be billed for support AND welfare payments going to the child, this is enforced at the point of a gun.

Hospital staff wants to get a man's name on the birth certificate. If your name goes on there it means jack crap if you turn out not to be the father, courts will make you pay child support for 2 decades or more in almost all cases.

We're not arguing that women have to carry pregnancies to term, really, we're arguing men should have the same rights to terminate all interest and rights in a child as women, men don't get a say, not even in taking the child himself if the mother puts it up for adoption after it's born.