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Sielle: Is there any form of DRM that you would find acceptable? And if so, what? If it hasn't been developed yet, what would it be, and how would it go about meeting the requirements you've set.

A simple CD Key for online play, and nothing for single player. If there must be something, then a simple disk check.
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Sielle: While you're thinking about this, there's a couple of things you should keep in mind.
1) It has to be something that both the consumer and publishers would agree to.
2) There is a difference between licensing and purchasing something. (I have a feeling this is going to open a whole can of worms, but that should be a different discussion.)
3) What is it that current DRM attempts to do, and what is it that your version would attempt to do?
I'm actually curious if you have a solution in mind, other than spouting "it's evil, burn it!"

These stipulations negate your first question, by establishing limits on what can be answered, so I simply answered your first question.
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Faithful: Mooo! says the gamer.
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PoSSeSSeDCoW: I find that very offensive.
=P

Yeah, but your PoSSeSSeD! :oP
Post edited August 09, 2009 by Faithful
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Sielle: Is there any form of DRM that you would find acceptable? And if so, what? If it hasn't been developed yet, what would it be, and how would it go about meeting the requirements you've set.
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DarrkPhoenix: Acceptable? No. Tolerable? To various degrees. To me, every form of DRM decreases the value of the product being sold; the extent to which it decreases the value depends on the specifics of the DRM. Needless to say, if the DRM drops the value below the asking price I don't buy the product. For my preferences, the two main things I'm opposed to are systems that could result in me no longer being able to play the game I bought (such as any remote activation), and systems that could damage my computer (e.g. Starforce). I'm willing to put up with disc checks, right up until they start giving false positives (I've had this happen with a couple of games, but nothing a No-CD crack couldn't deal with). With remote authentication systems I regard any game with one of those attached as a rental and I'm typically not willing to pay over $20 for such a title (finally ended up buying Mass Effect a few months back when it dipped under that price point). So again, to summarize, DRM removes value from products its attached to, and thus while I still may be willing to buy the product the price I'm willing to pay is less than I'd be willing to pay if the DRM wasn't there.
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Sielle: I'm actually curious if you have a solution in mind, other than spouting "it's evil, burn it!"

As I was discussing with cogadh, I'm of the opinion that DRM is intrinsically flawed, and the only purpose it can accomplish is restricting what legitimate customers can do with the products they have bought. Thus unless you're of the mind the customers being able to freely use what they bought is a problem, there is nothing that DRM can act as solution for.

I'm going to respond to things backwards... by your logic our legal system is intrinsically flawed. The only purpose it has it to restrict what someone can do. DRM is designed to restrict you, that's correct, and no one is debating that point. It's supposed to restrict you from handing out a copy of the game to anyone you see on the street. What it isn't supposed to do is restrict you in any way from using the software in accordance with it's licensing and copyright laws.
So what about this hypothetical situation... Purchasing the software online and through digital distribution. It requires you to authenticate the software online the first time you install it, but from that point forward you no longer need to activate it. You can run it on as many systems as you want, you can back it up as often as you like, you can even run it on multiple computers at the same time, you don't even have to have a computer online once you do the first install on any computer. (Example: Purchase on computer A, install and activate. Then back it up and copy it to computer B using an external drive, or even a burnt CD/DVD. Computer B isn't even online, yet you can still run the software on it and restore that backup perfectly fine.)
Would that be an acceptable form of digital distribution to you? In other words, how much would that form of DRM "devalue" the game in your eyes. Also I'd be curious how you came to that number (Lets assume a standard $50 new game).
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Sielle: Is there any form of DRM that you would find acceptable? And if so, what? If it hasn't been developed yet, what would it be, and how would it go about meeting the requirements you've set.
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Faithful: A simple CD Key for online play, and nothing for single player. If there must be something, then a simple disk check.
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Sielle: While you're thinking about this, there's a couple of things you should keep in mind.
1) It has to be something that both the consumer and publishers would agree to.
2) There is a difference between licensing and purchasing something. (I have a feeling this is going to open a whole can of worms, but that should be a different discussion.)
3) What is it that current DRM attempts to do, and what is it that your version would attempt to do?
I'm actually curious if you have a solution in mind, other than spouting "it's evil, burn it!"

These stipulations negate your first question, by establishing limits on what can be answered, so I simply answered your first question.

I never said you were required to follow those 3 points, just to keep them in mind.
Now in response to your answer. I'm assuming this is in regards to a physical disc purchase correct (As you've mentioned a CD check)? What about a digitally distributed game?
Post edited August 09, 2009 by Sielle
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Sielle: I'm going to respond to things backwards... by your logic our legal system is intrinsically flawed. The only purpose it has it to restrict what someone can do. DRM is designed to restrict you, that's correct, and no one is debating that point. It's supposed to restrict you from handing out a copy of the game to anyone you see on the street. What it isn't supposed to do is restrict you in any way from using the software in accordance with it's licensing and copyright laws.

The purpose of the legal system isn't to restrict what people can do; rather, it's focus is on judgment, punishment, and restitution following someone breaking a law. An apt analogy for DRM in this context would be placing governors on cars so that they couldn't go faster than the posted speed limit. People tend to go apeshit whenever something like this is proposed, and rightly so. Want to come after me once there's a reasonable belief I've broken the law? That's fine. Install mechanisms to restrict my freedom (even beyond restrictions imposed by the law) based on the assumption that I might violate the law sometime in the future, that's a problem. Also, as I already mentioned in my discussion with cogadh, the same processes are often used both for legal and illegal actions, thus in restricting processes that could lead to illegal actions you're also restricting processes that are necessary for certain legal uses.
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Sielle: So what about this hypothetical situation... Purchasing the software online and through digital distribution. It requires you to authenticate the software online the first time you install it, but from that point forward you no longer need to activate it. You can run it on as many systems as you want, you can back it up as often as you like, you can even run it on multiple computers at the same time, you don't even have to have a computer online once you do the first install on any computer. (Example: Purchase on computer A, install and activate. Then back it up and copy it to computer B using an external drive, or even a burnt CD/DVD. Computer B isn't even online, yet you can still run the software on it and restore that backup perfectly fine.)

And so what does this system even accomplish? It's basically like the DRM free system that GOG currently has, with one utterly redundant online authentication (if I just purchases and downloaded the game directly from you, what's an online authentication 2 minutes later going to accomplish?). Such a system doesn't do anything to prevent me from giving copies of the activated game to all my friends, or uploading a torrent of it. Now, I wouldn't have much of a problem with such a system and the drop in value for a game would be pretty negligible, but that's because it's basically DRM minus the DRM. So again, what are you hoping to accomplish with it?
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Vagabond: Stardock is God.
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Faithful: Maybe your kidding but it makes me think.
Mooo! says the gamer. Good gamer says Stardock.

I adore Stardock.
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I just tried InstallRite and it works on the webactivation version of Starforce. Also works with Steam games.
It's an easy FREE way to backup your games.
How it works is you take a snapshot of your system before the install and after the install/activation. After that you backup all the installed files with your favorite compression program. Then export the registry entry made by the snapshot. This new version of Starforce seems to be registry dependent, which is its Achilles heel. (Note: It only works with a fresh install.)
There's also an option to make an install program but I think it only supports up to a gig of data.
Download it here:
http://www.epsilonsquared.com/
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Isn't this the second time you've posted that in the last week or so? You don't have some involvement with the project do you?
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Sielle: So what about this hypothetical situation... Purchasing the software online and through digital distribution. It requires you to authenticate the software online the first time you install it, but from that point forward you no longer need to activate it. You can run it on as many systems as you want, you can back it up as often as you like, you can even run it on multiple computers at the same time, you don't even have to have a computer online once you do the first install on any computer. (Example: Purchase on computer A, install and activate. Then back it up and copy it to computer B using an external drive, or even a burnt CD/DVD. Computer B isn't even online, yet you can still run the software on it and restore that backup perfectly fine.)
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DarrkPhoenix: And so what does this system even accomplish? It's basically like the DRM free system that GOG currently has, with one utterly redundant online authentication (if I just purchases and downloaded the game directly from you, what's an online authentication 2 minutes later going to accomplish?). Such a system doesn't do anything to prevent me from giving copies of the activated game to all my friends, or uploading a torrent of it. Now, I wouldn't have much of a problem with such a system and the drop in value for a game would be pretty negligible, but that's because it's basically DRM minus the DRM. So again, what are you hoping to accomplish with it?

It could be useful as a superficial gesture to say "yes we use drm" while basically NOT using drm. Minimal annoyance to the customer and giving the suits the illusion of protection that they so desperately want
Post edited August 10, 2009 by Aliasalpha
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Aliasalpha: Isn't this the second time you've posted that in the last week or so? You don't have some involvement with the project do you?
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DarrkPhoenix: And so what does this system even accomplish? It's basically like the DRM free system that GOG currently has, with one utterly redundant online authentication (if I just purchases and downloaded the game directly from you, what's an online authentication 2 minutes later going to accomplish?). Such a system doesn't do anything to prevent me from giving copies of the activated game to all my friends, or uploading a torrent of it. Now, I wouldn't have much of a problem with such a system and the drop in value for a game would be pretty negligible, but that's because it's basically DRM minus the DRM. So again, what are you hoping to accomplish with it?

It could be useful as a superficial gesture to say "yes we use drm" while basically NOT using drm. Minimal annoyance to the customer and giving the suits the illusion of protection that they so desperately want

Aliasalpha,
Now perhaps I'm getting a little old and loosing my mind, but could you please point me to any time I've discussed a companies form of DRM in a discussion that wasn't already talking about various forms of DRM? But to answer your question the only involvement I have with Stardock is throwing them a couple hundred bucks over the years in purchases (Even have Elemental on pre-order). They just happen to have one of the few DRM plans that I agree with.
As for your "advice" about lying to investors and shareholders... wow. You do realize how much trouble you can get into for that? Flat out lies like that could land you in jail.
DarrkPhoenix,
What the system accomplishes is adding accountability to the user. If you trust everyone that much, why don't you just post your GOG login credentials in this thread.
As for the redundant online authentication, the reason for it is simply that you download a generic install pack. If you want the software to install over the net, rather than downloading the install, then I'd agree that the authentication is redundant. But if you actually stop and think about how the back end systems work it does make sense.
As to what I think it accomplishes is a DRM schema that is acceptable by both the consumer and business side of the equation. It allows the user to do 99% of the things they would want to do (within legal reasons) while at the same time adding a deterrent to pirating. We both know that all games will get cracked and torrented, but how many people are willing to share their login credentials to a couple hundred anonymous IP's?
(Side note: a number of cars do have limiters on them, as well as most super sport bikes (I know I've hit my GSXR's limiter a number of times). It's just that most people never reach the speeds that invoke the limiter, just as most people never hit the boundaries of all but the worst of DRM schemes)
Nonono, you misunderstand, I was talking to dreadcog there, I'm pretty sure he posted the link to that admittedly nifty application imaging software in another thread last week. I was replying to you AFTER the point where I quoted you.
As for my 'advice', it was one of those joke things I do sometimes. Also it could be argued that what effectiveness DRM has is psychological in nature and is to calm the minds of people who don't know any better. IF a single activation on purchase installer can be classified as DRM and only annoys the legitimate customer once, it could well fill the psychological role of DRM AND make it possible for people to use their own software
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Aliasalpha: Nonono, you misunderstand, I was talking to dreadcog there, I'm pretty sure he posted the link to that admittedly nifty application imaging software in another thread last week. I was replying to you AFTER the point where I quoted you.
As for my 'advice', it was one of those joke things I do sometimes. Also it could be argued that what effectiveness DRM has is psychological in nature and is to calm the minds of people who don't know any better. IF a single activation on purchase installer can be classified as DRM and only annoys the legitimate customer once, it could well fill the psychological role of DRM AND make it possible for people to use their own software

Oh I agree that DRM is mostly a psychological thing. Hence why I think the Goo method will be "as effective" as current methods without impacting me too much. By that I mean it will stop most of the casual piracy while still giving a security blanket to the suits for them to hold while they cry at night.
If your comment about lying to the suits was supposed to be sarcastic (sometimes it's hard to see that in written text), then I apologize for taking it seriously. I work at a financial company (Network security at said company), and if there's one thing you NEVER do it's knowingly and willingly lie to a shareholder or investor. Those are the things that get you an SEC audit and people thrown in jail.
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Aliasalpha: Isn't this the second time you've posted that in the last week or so? You don't have some involvement with the project do you?

Nah, I'm trying to help people out who don't know about it. I've been using it for years with games that take a while to install and are more than 5 discs. I recently discovered that it was possible to backup DRM titles with it. I would prefer to give people some hope when they think there is none. But if everyone prefers that there's no hope then I'll just chill.
Nah mate it looks awesome actually, just taking the piss a bit. Seems to be my thread for being misunderstood...
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Sielle: I work at a financial company (Network security at said company), and if there's one thing you NEVER do it's knowingly and willingly lie to a shareholder or investor. Those are the things that get you an SEC audit and people thrown in jail.

Yeah not a pleasant image when things go tits up, so many examples in recent years where its happened...
Post edited August 10, 2009 by Aliasalpha
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DarrkPhoenix: From what I've read of Goo it seems that resales have to go through Impulse, thus restricting buyers from reselling it on their own and on their own terms. So there's a restriction on how ownership may be transferred, in addition to the activation requirement you already mentioned (which I unfortunately couldn't find much technical information on, so any additional information you could provide here would be appreciated). Note that both of these are specifically restrictions on how legitimate customers can use the software they bought. I'd also be curious to know how, after the initial activation, Goo manages to distinguish between the original buyer re-installing the game on a new machine, and the buyer's friend Bobby installing the game on his machine (or is that "one time activation" actually an "every time you install it" activation?).
Additionally, I'd like to know what games, if any, Goo has been implemented in (information seems pretty scarce on all aspects of it), as the implementation is where things really matter for any DRM system. I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess that any game released with Goo has a cracked version available via torrent, and this goes to the heart of my argument about just who DRM actually affects. With the ubiquity of broadband and decentralized file transfer systems all that's required is a single cracked copy, and DRM schemes being cracked is inevitable. This is because since the customer has to be able to access the content they have everything that's needed to crack the DRM; all that can be done is slow down this process by adding layers of obfuscation through more complicated and sensitive verification methods, but this also increase the chance of false positives and provides extra hurdles for customers to jump through. The end result is that once the initial cracked copy is out there DRM has absolutely no effect on those looking to pirate the game, and thus the only people it can affect are legitimate customers.
This is not some challenge that DRM manufacturers simply having yet been able to find a way around, it is an intrinsic and insurmountable issue with what DRM is. This is because DRM is an encryption system in which the attacker and the authorized user are the same person. Thus it's no surprise when time after time the system fails miserably.

I think you need to take some time to understand how Goo works before you dismiss it as "bad" DRM:
1. Purchase game. For the purposes of this we will assume it is a direct download game.
2. Download game. The file downloaded (or a portion of it) is encrypted and useless without activation, so...
3. Activate/decrypt game. Activation attaches the game's serial number to your e-mail address, thereby allowing only you to install it on any machine you want (unless you decide to give away your e-mail address and serial number to every stranger on the internet). Entering that info upon install decrypts the game files and allows you to run the game. Once installed, no internet connection is required.
Other than the initial activation requirement, which as I mentioned is barely a nuisance like a disk check or serial key, none of that restricts any user's legitimate use of their legally licensed product in any way. How is this really a bad thing? The publishers/devs feel protected and the consumer gets their game virtually hassle-free, or at least no more hassle than we are already willing to accept. Yes, there will still be cracked versions of Goo protected games on torrent sites and the like, but so what? As Stardock has already fully admitted, those that pirate games are going to do that no matter what DRM is on a game. All DRM like Goo serves to do is prevent casual piracy amongst people who would normally buy a game rather than pirate it, i.e. don't make so easy that a computer illiterate could do it in their sleep.
Reselling Goo games does rely on Impulse at the moment and is really little more than selling the game back to Impulse, kind of like going into a GameStop and selling back a used console game. Yes this is a restriction, but what did you expect? No one has ever come up with a way to re-sell digitally distributed games before, so Stardock had to come up with something that would work while still preventing people from selling multiple copies of the digital game. Once they have been able to show that it will work, then the re-selling of digitally distributed games can expand beyond Impulse.
Look at it like this, before Steam, the idea of digitally distributing games was almost ludicrous. After Steam showed that it could be done and be extremely profitable, digital distribution started to become a near standard and has cropped up on multiple websites, consoles, cell phones, etc. If Stardock can show that Goo will work at least as well, if not better than existing DRM schemes (for both the distributor and consumer), then just like Steam did for DD, Stardock can make Goo a standard to either use or copy, which will allow us the freedom to use and re-sell our games as we want with minimal interference from the publishers. This is a good thing for everyone in the end and because of that, Stardock deserves to be given a chance to make Goo work before it dismissed out of hand simply because it is a form of DRM.
Post edited August 10, 2009 by cogadh
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Ranbir: We look to be heading in this direction. Paradox Plaza have hidden their support forum, only available to registered owners. One can waffle at how it interferes with the gaming experience, but really, it is a damn reasonable way to ensure their support is customer focused.
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Andy_Panthro: With a well made, bug free game, you shouldn't need a support forum anyway.
Besides, all you get in fan-made forums.

That rules out every single software in the world, then. Darn those software developers, how hard can it be to create perfection. >>
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Andy_Panthro: With a well made, bug free game, you shouldn't need a support forum anyway.
Besides, all you get in fan-made forums.
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Ranbir: That rules out every single software in the world, then. Darn those software developers, how hard can it be to create perfection. >>

http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Support-Should-Never-Be-Necessary.aspx
Post edited August 10, 2009 by Sielle
Sielle:
That the customer's login credentials would be attached to the game files is not something you made clear in your previous post. This is a major security vulnerability, and would mean an instant no-buy for me. The only acceptable means of tying user data to the game files would be as a cryptographic hash. Although this is actually moving away from DRM as a form of copy deterrence and moving into watermarking. Watermarking, when done properly, isn't something I'm opposed to as a customer, although I think it's not particularly effective as a deterrent to copying, and for to the point for this discussion it's not DRM.
cogadh:
Thanks for that additional info, it was quite informative. Given more on the specifics of how it works I no longer find much objectionable about it from a customer standpoint, although it doesn't seem like it would be all that effective at stopping piracy (one throwaway e-mail and it's released to everyone), and even less effective at stopping "casual" piracy (as I doubt people would have an issue with giving their e-mail to people they know). Still, if it gives the publishers a warm, fuzzy feeling of false security I'm not going to complain. I also agree that the addition of even a pseudo-resale option is a big step in the right direction for digital distribution. I do have another question, however, that I'm hoping you could provide the answer to. If the only time an internet connection is required is the initial activation of the installer, then how is access revoked once the game is "resold"?