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General discussion (archive)Francois Hollande est président de la Republique.(111 posts)(111 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 07, 2012
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Licurg: WhiteElk, maybe you should read this:


http://peakwater.org/2011/03/collecting-rainwater-now-illegal-in-many-states-as-big-government-claims-ownership-over-our-water/
I followed that case. In his dry location, at least there are some considerations for the folks downstream. So I do support legislation to ensure that people don't divert more than their share of a public resource. You gotta be aware of what happens downstream. Then share accordingly.

But collecting rainwater is also technically illegal in my region. Despite us having far too much of itr. Sometimes people must collect it just to keep their land, and their neighbors, from bogging up. A nearby city, Seattle bought water rights to allow people to legally collect it. People were gonna continue to do it anyway. And most our rainwater flows to sea.

It just strikes me that the Bolivian Water Wars were a powerful example of greed gone too damn far. We can't even collect the rain which falls from the sky because some ahole wants to make money off it. And then to protect his "interests" he uses government to enforce it. So people have choice to do without the thing humans most require for survival, or go rogue, or do without other essential needs. It's gone too far. WE MUST RESIST IN GLOBAL SOLIDARITY OR WE ARE DONE!
Post edited May 07, 2012 by WhiteElk
Posted May 07, 2012
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N0x0ss: ...
Really ? You like the idea of higher tax rate on rich ?
If he applies this, there won't be any big "entrepreneurs" left in france as they would all flee to switzerland and other tax-free countries. Coz more than 50% of tax rate is ridiculous
...
It's not a personal political opinion, it's an objective fact sustianed by concreet researches...
You might be surprised at how high top tax rates where in the last 50 years and how much the economy soared at the same time. So nothing with ridiculous. History tells you it's not. Tax rate was much higher than 50% and should be up again. Then we can maybe hope to stop the ever increasing inequality. Otherwise if we are not doing so I foresee a big revolution and rightly so.

Your idea, that economy would stop if tax rates are higher is not that well backed up. I would say that it depends on many more factors. And an economy that only works if the top 1% cannot be molested a little is pathetic.

But maybe there is something to it. Could you show a bit of the concrete research? Maybe just keywords?

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keeveek: You know that high taxes for rich in many cases means less jobs for poor?

You have to understand that in economy the rich NEVER pay taxes. Raise taxes = higher prices or closing down the business and move to another country. Simple as that.

Pumping money in economics should look always like this -> lower the taxes.
It's just my old school thinking. If you want more tax income you actually have to increase them not decrease them. Especially when facing a debt. Or what do you suggest? Making more debts? Cutting all expenses? No education, no police, no hospitals, no...

But if it's true that the rich never pay taxes, then a higher tax doesn't hurt, right? You can have capital income taxes or higher business tax so we get money from them even if they live in Switzerland, right?

My personal opinion: Just because somebody might sneak away doesn't mean I should stop looking for him.
Posted May 07, 2012
Another leaping off point to research the evil of the IMF, the World Bank and others is to look into what they've done to Jamaica. Then South America at large. You'll have to look at both to get the bigger picture of how the bankers altered the global food market for private gains. They destroy local economies for the benefit of their members. I can't imagine how even a short google spree can leave a person doubting their evil deeds. Google now before they pwn our internet (they try hard to do just that). Then stand up and fight them for they hurt our people!
Post edited May 07, 2012 by WhiteElk
Posted May 07, 2012
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Posted May 08, 2012
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Paul_cz: I find it hilarious/depressing that as I watch governments fail all around due to their greed/corruption/stupidity, people still believe that more government will save them.
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N0x0ss: Do they have any other option then to hope for the best ?
Well, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity, that is what french demonstrated. Both those that voted Sarkozy, and those that voted socialism. Sadly.
Posted May 08, 2012
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Trilarion: t's just my old school thinking. If you want more tax income you actually have to increase them not decrease them. Especially when facing a debt. Or what do you suggest? Making more debts? Cutting all expenses? No education, no police, no hospitals, no...

But if it's true that the rich never pay taxes, then a higher tax doesn't hurt, right? You can have capital income taxes or higher business tax so we get money from them even if they live in Switzerland, right?
If you want more money, you should encourage people to spend it. When you raise the taxes for electronics, for example, you will get less money. Because people will buy less electronics! If you lower them, more people will be able to afford buying somerthing that was beyond their income reach.

When people buy more, you get more income from taxes (even though on single item you earn less , in total you earn more, just like on steam sales :P).

And again - rich (and smart) never pay taxes. If you raise VAT, the prices will go up. You, as a customer will pay more, not the businessman.

Every single tax in banking , implemented here to "tax the evil bankers" had an impact on prices customers have to pay for their services. Higher taxes for banks = more expensive loans, accounts etc etc.

Businessman who is selling goods or services ALWAYS is able to move taxation burden from him onto his customers.
Post edited May 08, 2012 by keeveek
Posted May 08, 2012
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keeveek: ...
If you want more money, you should encourage people to spend it. When you raise the taxes for electronics, for example, you will get less money. Because people will buy less electronics! If you lower them, more people will be able to afford buying somerthing that was beyond their income reach.

When people buy more, you get more income from taxes (even though on single item you earn less , in total you earn more, just like on steam sales :P).

And again - rich (and smart) never pay taxes. If you raise VAT, the prices will go up. You, as a customer will pay more, not the businessman.

Every single tax in banking , implemented here to "tax the evil bankers" had an impact on prices customers have to pay for their services. Higher taxes for banks = more expensive loans, accounts etc etc.

Businessman who is selling goods or services ALWAYS is able to move taxation burden from him onto his customers.
That is a good point, but my idea would be that they can't move the taxation burden completely to the customer. If so you just haven't increased taxes enough. For example the personal capital income tax could be well between 30 and 50% (above a certain tax free income of let's say 100000€ per year). This would mean that half of the profit of capital investment is skimmed. You would have to double your profit to recompensate. How often can you do this?

It means that the effort is not enough. And anyway it means you can try it, maybe part of it actually works and the rich pay more in the end. Would be worthwile.

And you didn't answer my question: what do you want the government in Europe which run structural deficits to do: increase taxes, increase debts or cut spending???
Posted May 08, 2012
cut spending. But not spending on schools or health care.

For freaking beaurocracy. I don't know how it looks like in Germany, but Tusk is employing more and more workers every single year. We spend shitloads of money on things that could be easily done differently.

For example - we've got several offices , and to each and every one you have to deliver by yourself your social security numbers, etc etc.

Like they couldn't do this shit online! Why on earth I have to bring my freaking insurance everywhere I go. Couldn't they just create a system that could store that data in one place, not in 100 different places?

If offices were more modern here, you could easily cut the expenses in great amounts. Today 5 people in public offices do a job one person could easily do online.

Also, even small expenses during crisis piss people off. For example, govt. signed previsions lately, that will provide every single representative in Sejm (460 people) an iPad 2 64 GB.

Why the fuck can't they buy them with their own money? People can't afford to pay electricity bills often, and they buy themselves freaking iPads to play Angry Birds during Sejm's sessions.
Post edited May 08, 2012 by keeveek
Posted May 08, 2012
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XmXFLUXmX: So yeah, this idiot [new French president] wants to tax millionaires by 75% . Bye bye industry in France, we hardly knew you. More Socialist policies that are completely destroying Europe.
You know how high taxes in the US after second world war were? Higher. You know what happened to the industry? It grew. You know which candidates looked liked idiots in the primary elections (all of them I would say)? Not the french ones.
Posted May 08, 2012
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keeveek: cut spending. But not spending on schools or health care.

For freaking beaurocracy. I don't know how it looks like in Germany, but Tusk is employing more and more workers every single year. We spend shitloads of money on things that could be easily done differently. ...
Basically it's similar in Germany. Maybe not as bad. Online government services are slowly taking over, but extremely slowly. At least now there is a common tax number for everybody and I can send my tax declaration online.

Almost everybody I always talk with agrees that these things should be handled with much higher efficiency. Only somehow when a party is in charge, they improve only slowly. It's a great mystery to me, because everybody from left or right agrees to it but nobody has much success with it (lean organization).

For spending cuts: there is much more that is important than only schools and health care. What about libraries, culture, support for the poor, integration of immigrants, police, legal system, infrastructure (roads, bridges, ...) ... all these things are important.

And in the US they are actually cutting education. On Hawaii they introduced 4days-a-week education in order to cut costs. In the UK the study fees are extremely high. And in France part of Hollandes plan is to invest in education paid by higher taxes on the rich.

So we are at the next mystery. Everybody, really everybody always says that education is important, but some of them are cutting education when they could cut something else or raise taxes to keep financing education.

To me it seems like Hollande is heading in a better direction than Cameron or what Romney might do. Of course it's a personal opinion.
Posted May 08, 2012
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N0x0ss: Do they have any other option then to hope for the best ?
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Paul_cz: So you're suggesting that the french people "wake up" and stop voting for the same two parties that keep deceiving them ?

Well the third party that got the highest score is the nationalist party "extreme droite" of Mr Lepen and daughter. If we follow your strategy, the french should maybe vote for them, since they seem favored after the other two, and they have been rising in popularity for the past decade ?


Well if that's the case, Byebye E.U , byebye cheap french products in germany, and byebye strangers in France.
You'd really think it's best that a party that has no experience whatsoever in ruling a country takes over in a time of crisis ? One of their main objective is raise the importance of the french marine army to it's former glory.... How useful it is in a time of peace and economic crisis. Not to mension the costs of doing so.

It's clear that the only two parties that can save the national situation are in different ways the Socialist and Capitalist party.

The Capitalist party might find a way to encourage buisness and entreprises implantations (Not only national entreprises but also foreign buisnesses) and inject money in the country.

The Socialist party prefers to heal directly the people by sharing the money of the rich, and since it's the workers that suffered the most from the recession, it's perfect for them.

Now these are the 2 options.. It's neither the Nationalist ideas or the Eva Joly's Green party that's gonna save the situation of France.
We even had a candidate who planned a travel to Mars (Not that I critisize the Idea, Kennedy promised the moon after all and he delivered, may he rest in peace)
but really ... Mr Cheminade, Mars at a time like this ?? Even if it's for the future, thinking about it, when you must focalize strictly on the crisis at hand is a little bit silly.


So yes, They do only have 2 options. And they are the best options.


















Well, repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity, that is what french demonstrated. Both those that voted Sarkozy, and those that voted socialism. Sadly.
Posted May 08, 2012
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XmXFLUXmX: ...
You are so incredibly wrong. [1945 Tax Adjustment Act]

"Corporate and personal income tax rates were moderately reduced, and tax exemptions were given to members of the armed forces below the rank of commissioned officer on service pay received during the war."

Businesses will not stay in a place where they will get robbed by the Socialist mob, end of story. Would you work 40 hours a week to give up 75% of your hard earned money to the state?

The only people who look foolish, are the people who speak about high taxes as if they were a good thing.
Socialist mob? Whaaat?

75% is the marginal tax, meaning almost nobody will pay it. And the ones who will pay it will still get millions out of it. The company will just pay them more to compensate for the taxes. So you really ask me if people would be willing to work 40 hours per week to get millions per month?

It's just my opinion but I think you should come back with better arguments next time.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/tassava.WWII
"Americans who earned as little as $500 per year paid income tax at a 23 percent rate, while those who earned more than $1 million per year paid a 94 percent rate."
A simple progressive system.
Post edited May 08, 2012 by Trilarion
Posted May 08, 2012
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XmXFLUXmX: ...
You are so incredibly wrong. [1945 Tax Adjustment Act]

"Corporate and personal income tax rates were moderately reduced, and tax exemptions were given to members of the armed forces below the rank of commissioned officer on service pay received during the war."

Businesses will not stay in a place where they will get robbed by the Socialist mob, end of story. Would you work 40 hours a week to give up 75% of your hard earned money to the state?

The only people who look foolish, are the people who speak about high taxes as if they were a good thing.
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Trilarion: Socialist mob? Whaaat?

75% is the marginal tax, meaning almost nobody will pay it. And the ones who will pay it will still get millions out of it. The company will just pay them more to compensate for the taxes. So you really ask me if people would be willing to work 40 hours per week to get millions per month?

It's just my opinion but I think you should come back with better arguments next time.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/tassava.WWII
"Americans who earned as little as $500 per year paid income tax at a 23 percent rate, while those who earned more than $1 million per year paid a 94 percent rate."
A simple progressive system.
Those are war tax you're talking about. In war time, economy stagnate , and people tend to be patriotic about it. As soon as WWII ended, income tax was greatly reduce.

Also, companies won't pay people more to compensate.
Firstly, because they don't want to.
Second, if they did, they would have to pay nearly twice the increase, to pay the charges and taxes. And they don't have any money.

Plus, there's that thing about the feeling you never get enough money.

Library and many cultural things are fund locally here in France.
And police, customs and military are over-funds (who needs customs officers at each border stations in a Shengen country surrounded by other Shengen countries?)
Posted May 10, 2012
Well if that's the case, Byebye E.U , byebye cheap french products in germany, and byebye strangers in France.

and these are negative?I don't think so

just to say,immigrants now are the 30% in France and UK,the 25% in Germany,more of the 10% in Spain and less of 10% in Italy

in the next 50 years,France and Uk will have a white minority if nothing will be done
Posted May 10, 2012
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oigroig: Well if that's the case, Byebye E.U , byebye cheap french products in germany, and byebye strangers in France.

and these are negative?I don't think so

just to say,immigrants now are the 30% in France and UK,the 25% in Germany,more of the 10% in Spain and less of 10% in Italy

in the next 50 years,France and Uk will have a white minority if nothing will be done
And without all those bad immigrants, who'll pay your nice retirement when you're 65?

And without EU, who's gonna save your $2.5 trillion indebted ass?
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)Francois Hollande est président de la Republique.(111 posts)(111 posts)
(111 posts)