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Delixe: I just want to say this game is fucking awsome. Second playthrough and I missed so much the first time! I just found a random NCR Sergeant and he wants me to save his troops. YES!
What a coincidence, just found that myself. It's amazing how much of a difference I'm seeing. I think choosing to go as a woman this time instead of a man has a lot to do with it.
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Delixe: She aint that good anyway.
Oh she is as she levels up, she's as lethal as boone when she gets close enough to the enemy to punch their faces off. Add that to her quest giving you access to one of the best specialist weapons in the game (pulse gun, never again be bothered by robots) and her slightly unhinged, dress obssessed personality and I'm going to find it hard to use Raul, Arcade or Boone in my next playthrough
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Delixe: I just want to say this game is fucking awsome. Second playthrough and I missed so much the first time! I just found a random NCR Sergeant and he wants me to save his troops. YES!
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hedwards: What a coincidence, just found that myself. It's amazing how much of a difference I'm seeing. I think choosing to go as a woman this time instead of a man has a lot to do with it.
It makes a difference in the legion base, thats for sure. Its the one area where I was really disappointed with the game, I'd spent half the game working up a gender equality rant to throw at caesar (focussed largely on how stupid he was to eliminate half his potential fighting force for no logical reason, the stupidity is why its going to be so hard working for them when I do) but there wasn't a single option to that effect in the conversation with any legion member
Post edited November 12, 2010 by Aliasalpha
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Delixe: She aint that good anyway.
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Aliasalpha: Oh she is as she levels up, she's as lethal as boone when she gets close enough to the enemy to punch their faces off. Add that to her quest giving you access to one of the best specialist weapons in the game (pulse gun, never again be bothered by robots) and her slightly unhinged, dress obssessed personality and I'm going to find it hard to use Raul, Arcade or Boone in my next playthrough
You do realize she doesn't put out half the damage Cass, Boone or Raul do?
She kills things in one or two hits (one if you give her a better powerfist), it doesn't really matter if the numbers are lower
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Aliasalpha: She kills things in one or two hits (one if you give her a better powerfist), it doesn't really matter if the numbers are lower
Cass Kills a Deathclaw in two shots from an upgraded Hunting Shotgun. Raul kills Deathclaws in one hit with the Mysterious Magnum. Boone + AMR = LULZ.
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Aliasalpha: It makes a difference in the legion base, thats for sure. Its the one area where I was really disappointed with the game, I'd spent half the game working up a gender equality rant to throw at caesar (focussed largely on how stupid he was to eliminate half his potential fighting force for no logical reason, the stupidity is why its going to be so hard working for them when I do) but there wasn't a single option to that effect in the conversation with any legion member
Wait, that's the gender problem you have with them? Not the wanton rape and sexual abuse? I'd recommend you ask Veronica what she thinks of the Legion, because she has a pretty good rant of her own about them.
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Aliasalpha: It makes a difference in the legion base, thats for sure. Its the one area where I was really disappointed with the game, I'd spent half the game working up a gender equality rant to throw at caesar (focussed largely on how stupid he was to eliminate half his potential fighting force for no logical reason, the stupidity is why its going to be so hard working for them when I do) but there wasn't a single option to that effect in the conversation with any legion member
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hedwards: Wait, that's the gender problem you have with them? Not the wanton rape and sexual abuse? I'd recommend you ask Veronica what she thinks of the Legion, because she has a pretty good rant of her own about them.
Well its a minor spoiler but caesar says that women are unfit to be soldiers (no mention of them being too important because they breed, they're only fit to be slaves and mothers), the fact that my female character massacred 3/4 of his advance patrol men before getting his invitation was written off as an anomaly and there was no option anywhere to tell him off about being a dick, no option to suggest that he could dramatically increase his combat effectiveness if he added female soldiers and still not endanger his population growth and not even an "oh yeah? Lets put me up against your best men in the arena and see who wins" because women aren't allowed in the arena.

If they wanted to make him out to be a shortsighted wanker then they managed that extremely well but the notable and oft mentioned gender discrimination NEEDED a conversation
Post edited November 12, 2010 by Aliasalpha
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Aliasalpha: If they wanted to make him out to be a shortsighted wanker then they managed that extremely well but the notable and oft mentioned gender discrimination NEEDED a conversation
But, he's not short sighted. He's extremely pragmatic in his goals. It's a relatively recent luxury that the developed world has of having women as soldiers for the precise reasons he states. Additionally, from a historical perspective the needs of war were not satisfiable by women. Sort of like how during the rule of Alexander the Great they couldn't accommodate lefties either.

And as for the speech option, that would carry it quite far from role playing into a quagmire that's even worse than it is presently. The courier as a character is sufficiently aware of the reality of the Mojave to be pretty nonplussed by all sorts of bigger problems.

MINOR SPOILERS
Same goes for the other folks, just head into the Novac store after handling Boone's quest and talk with the shop keep. While he hasn't killed anywhere near as many people, he's pretty unimpressed by what you have to say.

Or ask Boone about how he knows about his wife's fate.
Dammit I was sure I would side with the NCR this time but talking to Arcade has me wanting to go with Yes Man. Decisions, Decisions...
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hedwards: But, he's not short sighted. He's extremely pragmatic in his goals. It's a relatively recent luxury that the developed world has of having women as soldiers for the precise reasons he states. Additionally, from a historical perspective the needs of war were not satisfiable by women.
The reasons he states are not that women are too valuable, the reason he gives is that women are not FIT to be soldiers. If it was a case of protecting his genetic diversity or securing his population base I'd have agreed with it but he actively claims that women are incapable of being soldiers which is demonstrably false just by looking at the NCR
Holy smokes I can't wait! Exams all through this week, and then FNV on Friday!
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hedwards: But, he's not short sighted. He's extremely pragmatic in his goals. It's a relatively recent luxury that the developed world has of having women as soldiers for the precise reasons he states. Additionally, from a historical perspective the needs of war were not satisfiable by women.
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Aliasalpha: The reasons he states are not that women are too valuable, the reason he gives is that women are not FIT to be soldiers. If it was a case of protecting his genetic diversity or securing his population base I'd have agreed with it but he actively claims that women are incapable of being soldiers which is demonstrably false just by looking at the NCR
So kill him? It's pretty obvious that the Legion is not liked.
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hedwards: But, he's not short sighted. He's extremely pragmatic in his goals. It's a relatively recent luxury that the developed world has of having women as soldiers for the precise reasons he states. Additionally, from a historical perspective the needs of war were not satisfiable by women.
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Aliasalpha: The reasons he states are not that women are too valuable, the reason he gives is that women are not FIT to be soldiers. If it was a case of protecting his genetic diversity or securing his population base I'd have agreed with it but he actively claims that women are incapable of being soldiers which is demonstrably false just by looking at the NCR
Apples oranges, he runs his army in a very different way and is more ruthless. The NCR presumably in the theoretical framework that is the game ultimately pays a price for not going all out. The Legion as described in the game is engaged in total war, whereas the NCR is just very aggressive. The difference being that the Legion takes and holds the ground whereas the NCR just takes it and apparently depends upon others to actually hold it internally.
Those are strategic factors that have nothing to do with recruitment policy, what you use your army for is not relevant to the question of the army composition as long as the soldiers in the army are capable of performing their tasks (mostly shoot things).

The pragmatic approach is "when you deal with a problem in a realistic way rather than obeying fixed theories, ideas or rules", assuming there wasn't a desperate need for women who can bolster population growth (and that was never implied), caesar is actively denying potential recruits based on his own prejudices which can be demonstrated as false. Ruthless pragmatism should demand that he utilise female soldiers even if only as cannon fodder

At the end of the day, this makes no real difference to me, its only disappointing that there was no option to counter or even really question this apparently baseless sexism during your dialogue with caesar
Post edited November 13, 2010 by Aliasalpha
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Aliasalpha: Those are strategic factors that have nothing to do with recruitment policy, what you use your army for is not relevant to the question of the army composition as long as the soldiers in the army are capable of performing their tasks (mostly shoot things).
Of course it's relevant. It's relatively unusual to exclude people completely without cause from serving. It's a lot more than just shooting straight. There's issues of troop cohesion, distraction, being able to keep up with the rigors of combat and the drawback of needing to find somebody else to manage the home fires and deal with the rest of the stuff that's not frontlines stuff.

That being said, I'm about to go in a snuff out the Caesar probably tomorrow.