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low rated
RPG's are power fantasies. The player is ridiculously powerful and can singlehandedly kill hundreds of enemies. Both female and male characters are ridiculously powerful, and the minor difference in muscle mass between the sexes is small potatoes. The male character is 10000% overpowered, while the female character is 9992% Is this "realism" in any shape or form?

What lowering the stats of female characters actually does is more like sabotaging their power fantasy, on a ridiculous pretense of "realism".
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KasperHviid: minor difference in muscle mass between the sexes is small potatoes
ridiculous pretense of "realism".
Uh huh. Totally ridiculous.

World records - weightlifting
Men
Snatch - 139 kg
Clean & Jerk - 171 kg
Total - 307 kg

Women
Snatch - 98 kg (70.5%)
Clean & Jerk - 121 kg (70.8%)
Total - 217 kg (70.7%)

But of course you use emotional ploys like claiming "sabotaging their power fantasy" to justify your unfair accusations of sexism...

I'm for letting developers tell their story, especially if they choose to include truth as they see it. You seem to favor pressuring developers to change things even when that creates less truth in the final work if it fits your "agenda".
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KasperHviid: minor difference in muscle mass between the sexes is small potatoes
ridiculous pretense of "realism".
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RWarehall: Uh huh. Totally ridiculous.
Something tells me you didn't read his post.
low rated
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RWarehall: Uh huh. Totally ridiculous.
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PoppyAppletree: Something tells me you didn't read his post.
Something tells me he can't. :P
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RWarehall: Uh huh. Totally ridiculous.
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PoppyAppletree: Something tells me you didn't read his post.
Something tells me you didn't read mine...
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PoppyAppletree: Something tells me you didn't read his post.
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tinyE: Something tells me he can't. :P
I see that lobbing insults appears to be your way of "constructive discussion". Quit harassing me, you bully!
Post edited June 15, 2018 by RWarehall
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It's amazing how some people have the gall to claim others can't read when the points were directly addressed.
70.5% is not 99.92%. And shaming a developer over reflecting reality because a busybody thinks every game should encourage "female power fantasies" is the problem.

If every game must appease all women as you claim, then why is it okay for games or movies to feature a predominantly female cast such as Ocean's 8? This whole cultural b.s. demanding that all male oriented games, books and films need to go away while remaining silent about "chick flicks" or "romance novels" displays one's bias. You do not seek equality. You are merely one-sided advocates with an agenda.

And as applies to the OP, "modern" feminism is the root of this disease where equality is not enough. All things male leaning must be "fixed", but if something is female oriented, that's okay.
Aside from the fact that I think that the OP is trolling...
"modern feminism" is a relative concept. It does not mean the same for all people in all parts of the world.
Personally, I don't care about sex or gender (aside from my own sexual preference). So I also don't care about any game implementations. Politically speaking, of course I'd like this not caring to be a global (universal) thing. So no more topics like this! :-)
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Fairfox: welp taht is convenient isnt it
Who/what's welp taht and why is it/he/she convenient?
Post edited June 15, 2018 by teceem
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RWarehall: Uh huh. Totally ridiculous.

World records - weightlifting
Men
Snatch - 139 kg
Clean & Jerk - 171 kg
Total - 307 kg

Women
Snatch - 98 kg (70.5%)
Clean & Jerk - 121 kg (70.8%)
Total - 217 kg (70.7%)
Realism! Very important! Truth to power! etc. etc. etc.

...In Arcanum, a starter character can carry something like 3 cuirasses and still move about (slowly). If you max out strength, I think you can carry 25. Sorry for the odd comparison units, but I think Arcanum used "stones" for weight, but those weren't the unit we know in the real world.

So yeah, I don't think "REALISM!" is a good excuse.
Post edited June 15, 2018 by babark
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babark: So yeah, I don't think "REALISM!" is a good excuse.
Far more realistic than treating both sexes and their maximum capabilities as exactly the same when it comes to maximum strength. Of course, you aren't trying to get it, just make excuses why not kowtowing to your demands of the game developers somehow inexplicably makes them sexist. Because somehow if the way strength is implemented isn't perfect, that mysteriously means the developer is biased, even if its closer to the truth? It's an excuse, plain and simple. Cherry-picking video games to proclaim a false sense of bias in order to promote your advocacy.

I see how you don't seem to want to address media which focuses on women such as romance novels or "chick flicks" or most "romantic comedies". I don't see you claiming that those imbalances in the compositions of the cast and their portrayals need to change as well in order to become "more balanced". Only games which you see as more male oriented are the ones you want to change.

Awfully "convenient" that, isn't it?
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RWarehall: Far more realistic than treating both sexes and their maximum capabilities as exactly the same when it comes to maximum strength.
I think you missed my point. You keep talking about "realistic". These games were not meant to be realistic. According to your numbers (which I'll take at face value, I don't know where you got them from), the strongest man in the world can for a short period of time, lift up 171kgs(I'm not sure how you totalled them and what that means).
Assuming a medium chainmail is about 10kgs, characters with maxed out strength in Arcanum can carry around almost 250kgs, and just be slowed down a bit.
And I'm not even talking about the existence of magic, or orcs or gnomes. These games are not meant to be "realistic".

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RWarehall: Of course, you aren't trying to get it, just make excuses why not kowtowing to your demands of the game developers somehow inexplicably makes them sexist
Not just sexist, worse (for me, at least :D), it makes them bad game designers.
Post edited June 16, 2018 by babark
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tinyE: I consider myself a feminist, but even I don't want anything to do with this thread. :P
Then why did you post?

Hypocritical humor: I consider myself misogynist, but even I don't want to have anything to do with this thread.
Post edited June 16, 2018 by Mafwek
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babark: These games were not meant to be realistic.
So, in your opinion, no developer should ever try to mimic reality in any way, right? The problem is you don't really have a point. The argument is fallacious. You are claiming that since some elements of a game are fantasy, any developer should excuse all reality for some inexplicable reason, and treat both sexes as identical. That just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Just as foolish a statement as claiming that stat adjustments by gender is somehow a clear sign a developer is sexist.

Some developers choose to leave all stats the same, be it for game balance or just plain simplicity. But to argue a game is inherently bad for seeking more realism is just silly.

You don't like it. Don't buy it. Just like I don't buy romance novels and don't watch a lot of so-called "chick flicks". The latter being successful without a strong male audience just as some videogames are highly successful without any busybody "modern feminists" buying it either.